I'm the guru of poker club apps. AMA

I'm FrYoungtrad, a doctoral student in pipe organ and live and club poker player/agent. Many poker players have dismissed club apps categorically, providing anecdotes about scams, moralizings about business practices, etc. I'm here to provide a more balanced and accurate perspective on clubs, tell you how they work, and how to make money playing in them and not get scammed. I have experience in all levels of poker club operations, including playing exploitatively, cashiering/accounting, security, recruiting, and union leadership. As a result, I have connections with all types of people in every area of the club space. Club apps represent a massive, crazy underworld, and I have not noticed that side of the business talked about much. However, even after having seen what I've seen, I doubt that I will ever play poker outside of clubs and live. The RIGHT clubs are highly secure, highly profitable places to play, but it's a different business model and economy than what most poker players are used to. It's analogous to living in the affluent area of a city run by gangs instead of the police - your safety and wealth are guaranteed by a mercenary instead of a (perhaps far more corrupt and bureaucracy-laden) government entity. Depending on your situation, some city quarters run by cartels will offer you a far better place to set up your McMansion and picket fence with 2.5 children and a dog named Spot, than neighborhoods whose streets are constantly crawled by law enforcement. With the gambling hustle, should it be any surprise that it's the same way? To cover most FAQs, I will tell you about how poker clubs work first, then move on to a section about the bots, and finally provide some tips on how to make money in clubs. Ask me anything you like about strategy, stats, practical advice, specific actors, etc separately below. Caveats: this is not a place to advertise clubs, so I will not do that in this thread. I will also not compromise anyone's safety through identifying information, whether they're well-known scammers or reputable superagents. And just to be clear, I’m not talking about clubs which do not deal with real money. How do poker clubs work behind the scenes? Poker clubs must be distinguished from the platforms upon which they are based. Platforms are phone apps like PokerBros and ClubGG (colloquially “Asian apps.”) The platform does not provide gambling services involving real money. Instead, platform developers make a profit from players by selling subscription services to special features like ratholing, access to site freerolls, additional time banks, decorative themes, etc. Importantly, platforms also sell special services to club owners, like security features, the ability to link clubs together into a union, or even charge clubs for the ability to dispense chips after a certain amount. Platforms do not provide or support real money gambling services. To buy or cash out chips in a given club, you exchange venmo, bitcoin, or some other real life currency for play chips. Poker clubs are private rooms that players may join and choose from when they open the platform’s app. Depending on the platform, clubs may be linked together into a “union” in various ways. The union owners control what tables appear in every club belonging to it. For example, if Club A and Club B belong to a union together, players in Club A and Club B will find themselves playing against each other on the same cash tables and in [at least some of] the same tourneys. Union accounting is done on a weekly basis. If the players in Club A lose money in a given week overall to the players in Club B, the owner of Club A must pay the appropriate amount of those players’ deposits to Club B at “settle up” time so that the latter can cash out those players. A stop loss and security deposit system is employed by the union to ensure accountability. The union takes an amount (from 0-15%) of each club’s weekly rake to provide these services. Unions are like corporations. Indeed, many of them have so much traffic that it is no exaggeration to say that they are direct competitors to the biggest official sites on the planet. Here are the different levels of the corporation. Note: “blue chips” are the chips kept behind the cage, used by agents and their oversight only. Blue chips can be freely exchanged 1:1 for red chips, which are the only ones that can be put on the tables.

1. Union leadership: One or more people may be shareholders in the union. Their most important job is providing security using tools provided them by the platform. Some unions have dedicated teams of well-compensated full-time staff for this purpose. They also conduct weekly settle up or provide for that settle up to be accomplished via AI, chatbots, part-time cashiers, etc. If the union uses bots, union leadership deals directly with the bot company to make sure they get paid, adjust the bots’ behavior according to the union's economy, etc. They can make administrative decisions like which countries are allowed to play, and settle disputes (for example, if a player is convinced by an agent to switch from another. This is called “poaching” and can have severe consequences.)
2. Club leadership: one or more people may be shareholders in a given club. They recruit superagents, agents, and players to the club. They are allowed to distribute blue chips on an unlimited basis to superagents and agents. They get a majority cut (85%+) of the rake generated by their club if they are unionized, or all if it if they aren’t. The club’s shareholders also may get a cut of another club’s rake if they recruited such club to the union. Usually, these club owners just sit back and make passive income, and don’t have to do that much. When club owners appear on tables, they are often recognized celebrities who dump chips to the players, but some of them are good players. If a club is independent (not unionized,) they have far fewer tools available to them to provide security; however, there are also usually far fewer players in such clubs.
3. Superagents: recruit agents and players to clubs. They get a majority cut of the rake (65%-95%) from the agents and players they recruit, and sell blue and red chips to those under them.
4. Agents: recruit players to the club. Usually their cut is between 40%-80% of the rake generated by the players they recruit, depending on the type of action they bring. Bringing in losing action is always valued higher than more gross action. Agents may or may not be under a superagent.
5. Player: may only buy red chips, from any of the above entities. It’s up to their agent (who may or may not be a superagent or club owner) to decide whether they get rakeback, bonuses, etc. Basically, the serfs of the club poker space. If they recruit another player to the club, their agent should give them a lump sum bonus, but if they start recruiting more active players, they should be promoted to agent. There are some immediately identifiable disadvantages to this business model. The biggest one is that accountability can be difficult, resulting in the possibility of scams. Especially up until about a year ago (and even ongoing in smaller startup clubs) an agent could theoretically take your deposit and never cash you out, or a club could leave a union and never pay the union at settle up time. (Usually, the player or whoever is compensated out of security deposits when this happens.) Also, a club owner can load themselves unlimited red chips (like a casino owner) and dump on the tables and find themselves in more debt than they can handle. Cashiers who handle the venmo, zelle, paypal, btc, etc. can also walk away with the money. I saw this happen once. The club owner threatened to fly out to where the cashier lived and kick his ass and the club wound up getting the money back. However, things have gotten much better in the past year or so. To explain, I will return to my analogy about the neighborhoob run by a cartel. It is one thing to scam someone according to the law: you might get caught and serve your time. However, if a gang scams another gang, the kickback of vigilante justice will be orders of magnitude stronger. Thus, as people have gotten to know each other in the club space as the apps themselves have recently advanced, everyone knows everyone and their history; reputation is a currency unto itself. If you have a good reputation, you will get highly rewarded, and if you screw up, redemption is extremely difficult. Most agents and clubs see the long-term profit of keeping a high raking player loyal, so stealing deposits is not a profitable scam anymore. These days, when issues occur, usually it’s at the superagent level or higher, like when club owners irresponsibly load more credit than they can handle and then can’t cash out their players. Even in that case, which is rare but significant when it does occur, it becomes a logistics issue of dispensing that club owner’s security deposit to the right people: only agents have communication access to their players. Doesn’t this sound at least marginally better than getting scammed by some company run out of Malta that then collapses and it takes decades to get only a small portion of your money back? I offer that this business model, strange and rickety as it may seem, is a much more effective and human way of dealing in the poker industry than what we usually encounter. What casino would offer you money to bring your buddy into their poker room, before immediately making hundreds off him? Instead of being raked to death by a greedy corporation, regular players are offered rakeback, and the agent shares in admin duties in exchange for a small cut. He will also be held accountable by his boss and peers, unlike the CEO who gets bailed out. The best agents provide intangible rewards, providing player reads, letting you know when the game is good, being a bro in general, and so forth. Where else does the casino owner sit down at the table and start blasting off stacks? It’s becoming clearer that as the business model I described is refined over the years, it is becoming a peer-to-peer, grassroots style of keeping one sector of the poker economy healthy rather than an arena for scammers. There’s no commission or legal entity keeping track of any of this, yet within this system, I trust a large amount of my money with real people I’ve never met, and they trust me with theirs. How do the bots work? Bots have become a huge problem in the online poker industry, and the club world is no exception. Club bots, of course, are entirely legal, available for anyone to purchase, and advertised openly online. The most advanced ones are created by a company out of Russia, a huge corporation with teams of staff dedicated to different aspects of club poker economics, bot development, and even anti-bot measures. They seem to have a similar business model to the clubs themselves, as I get different agents for the bot companies reaching out to me on a weekly basis selling their wares (unsuccessfully, of course.) The first bots came out when AI started becoming a thing. They operate on an adaptive machine learning model combined with what must be massive, extremely expensive, highly academic field studies of tens of billions of hands. This database of hands alone must require a team of professionals, including software developers and scientists to manage and interpret to train the bots correctly. Or perhaps they use AI for all that, I don’t know. However, it is striking to consider the amount of investment and data collection that must have gone into developing such an advanced piece of software for such a specific application. Anyway, the bot companies charge one cent per hand (per bot, I think?) plus a cut of union profits. The point of the bots isn’t necessarily to beat real players at the game, depending on the customer. You can hire the company to make it seem as if there are tables full of real players in your club/union, but force the bots to only break even in the long run. I recently acquired a small union in which most of the players online (around 8-12 full tables, including PLO5) were bots, with only one or two real players appearing on the tables per day. Of course, the union is terminated, and I did not profit from it in its short existence under my ownership, but I hope to use the data in a way that benefits the community. The point is that it serves as an example of how the bots can operate. In another case, I played in one club which became overrun by bots after a while (this was in the early days of the bots’ existence.) I mentioned this to a recreational player who wanted to play there, but he didn’t care, and just kept putting in action there. He preferred it to the bot-free clubs. The bots do share hole cards and hand data with each other, adapting as a group to every real player’s style. When they learn their opponent’s style, they become quite difficult to beat. They employ a limp-heavy strategy based on field data which is difficult to tackle from a theoretical perspective without similarly sized mounds of data. To hope to beat them, you have to change your style frequently to remain unpredictable. I would like to know how big their card sharing edge is in NLH; or how much it depends on how many bots are on the table. In the early days, I played some very, very weird hands against them (like xc oop, xc, x with total air no draw,) and found some significant leaks inherent to their software, but I’m sure those have since been patched. I only play and agent in clubs that are bot-free, and those clubs are still abundant. Dealing with the bots has prompted some interesting thoughts for me. At first, I was explicitly against the development of poker bots altogether. But of course, club bots aren’t inherently evil. They are fascinating spectacles of software which reflect a collaboration going on in the poker world which in and of itself can just as well help the community. The moral issue lies in the fact that most of the time, when real humans sit at a virtual table in a pro-bot club, they might not know which players they’re facing are real, and which are bots. Ironically, a recreational player might be just as happy playing a bot as they would be facing a real player, even fully conscious of the fact that the villain is nothing more than an AI-based simulation. Any reg, too, knows that stacking a bot is extremely satisfying. Like it or not, the bots are changing the poker economy as we know it, and they are here to stay. It is possible for anyone to hire this Russian company to fill a club with bots and make it seem like a big operation full of real players, and resultingly, anyone can enter the club space at a higher level now. Is there a fair and moral way to incorporate bots into club poker? For example, can we imagine a future where is it more acceptable for a club owner to employ a bot to break even or lose as a prop player, than it would be for that owner to stake a nit human to get the game started, as long as the bot is clearly and publicly marked as such? You sold me; I’m enthralled with the idea of poker clubs now. How should I get started? The best clubs will be run by and contain players who you know IRL. Failing that, the most secure and reliable clubs are smaller ones that run scheduled/nightly games, because those are more likely to involve players who know the owner personally, increasing accountability. If you wish to play in a larger club or union, ask for references from union leadership about your agent and what type of security they have. Reputable union leaders will be THRILLED to offer this information to their players and agents. Always ask for RB. Know that if you recruit several regular players to a given club, you should be offered an agency deal. Do not accept a high minimum rake amount to receive RB. Don’t bother shopping around for RB/agent deals within a club/union; this will just get you a bad name and/or reported. Never buy player contacts, club or union shares. This is always a scam. At least communicate, if not have a relationship with club/union leadership before depositing. Hand grabbing/PT import software, like EliteHud, along with emulators like LDPlayer9, are against the rules. Sometimes big withdrawals take a long time. Don’t freak out if it does, even if you deposited 5000 moments ago and just want to withdraw 2500. Probably, the club/union used the 5000 to settle up a guy peer-to-peer owed 20,000, and you’re in line to be fulfilled likewise peer-to-peer. In other words, it’s not that the money has disappeared, it just takes time to move the money in a risk-free fashion for everyone’s protection.

What do you hope to do with the pipe organ?

Thanks for posting, very interesting! How frequently do you discover collusion in the clubs you agent for and subsequently drop the club?

I don't believe anything until we see a video of you playing the pipe organ.

by ninefingershuffle m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58660264#post58660264)

What do you hope to do with the pipe organ?

I've been offered a post as Director of Music at a large Roman Catholic church. Moving today😀 My job will be to conduct the principal choir, maintain and play the pipe organ, plan all liturgical music, organize public performances on campus, and other duties. Roughly 60% of our household income comes from this. The rest is from poker and teaching private lessons.

by crimsonchin m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58660355#post58660355)

Thanks for posting, very interesting! How frequently do you discover collusion in the clubs you agent for and subsequently drop the club?

Wow, someone read this! Thanks for your interest! Assuming you're talking about collusion between humans, and not bots. This seems to be a bigger concern in plo and tourney land, and me and my downliners are mostly nlh cash players. Learning about one incident of collusion wouldn't be enough for me to exit from a club, as long as it's properly investigated. After all, it can happen on any platform. And it is easy for unions to see outright collusion happening, address it, and get funds returned before further damage is done. However, there was one incident where one of my connections saw clear collusion going on, while I was considering agenting for that club. I was already concerned about other things with that club, so I wound up not making a deal to begin with. Bots are a much bigger concern. It's easier, cheaper, and more effective to hire a bot ring than it is to collude between humans. I'll probably wind up talking about anti-bot measures later in this thread.

If one of the priests gets handsy with a kid, are you going to turn him in?

by ninefingershuffle m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58660473#post58660473)

If one of the priests gets handsy with a kid, are you going to turn him in?

That doesn't happen often these days, but yep, and it will be in cooperation with law enforcement, not the diocesan kangaroo court.

by Mixedgamelover m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58660367#post58660367)

I don't believe anything until we see a video of you playing the pipe organ.

Not quite ready to out my identity THAT obviously (though it would be easy to nail down,) but if you really want to see a video of top tier organ music, look up videos of Vincent Dubois, Thierry Eschaich, or Pierre Cochereu. My knowledge of this obscure topic should put to rest any doubts xD

This forum is a bit of an experiment with an AI moderator and once in a while I have to undelete a bot moderated post. Not seeing any deleted posts itt atm.

Emulators are not allowed so is everyone single tabling?

by bigdave2304 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666386#post58666386)

Emulators are not allowed so is everyone single tabling?

lol, imagine following their stupid rules.

What's the most profit u made in a month from apps

--Should I play in a club run by a guy I know who currently owes another guy I know 30k? --How do you reconcile/compartmentalize your day job with your side hustle?

by BigBananas m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666501#post58666501)

lol, imagine following their stupid rules.

Do you just use emulator anyway? Is there a way to multitable on one phone? Use multiple phones?

false alarm! must have been a mobile / browser issue or just me. ty mods.

by bigdave2304 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666386#post58666386)

Emulators are not allowed so is everyone single tabling?

The apps generally allow for up to four tables to be played at once on a single account. You can play in different clubs at the same time, too, up to four tables.

by BigBananas m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666501#post58666501)

lol, imagine following their stupid rules.

Club/union owners can see whether you play using an .apk file or the official version of the app from the app store/google play. They can also see whether you're playing more than the app's maximum four tables at a time, which would require a software patch. Such patches do exist for clubgg at the least; I'm not sure about others. Whether you get more than a slap on the wrist for this, if discovered, depends on the club. The platform doesn't care.

by Nintendo1985 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666802#post58666802)

What's the most profit u made in a month from apps

Once I was having a bad day and decided to flip 20bb at 5/10 with the last of the chips I had in my account in a certain club. (The max BI was 20bb.) I turned that into about 20k before RB by the end of the month. It was surprisingly one of the softest games I've ever discovered. The player's didn't really care about strategy, just flipping with any weak Ax, any suited garbage. I stopped playing the game when more regs accustomed to short stack play joined. I played about 10,000 hands in that game. I don't play it under my FrYoungtrad account when I do return occasionally.

by mrcnkwcz m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666817#post58666817)

--Should I play in a club run by a guy I know who currently owes another guy I know 30k?

Way more info needed. What does he owe 30k for? did he buy a car? did a union knowingly grant him credit? did he lose a sports bet? etc. One guy owing 30k to a union might not be a big deal. If it's a simple credit deal where both parties are aware of the terms, the deal's collateral is a downline's rake, or something like that, it might be small fry, or even profitable to the owed party to be owed that much by him. 30k is a medium sized debt you see tossed around in this world. Need to know why he owes 30k.

by mrcnkwcz m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58666817#post58666817)

--How do you reconcile/compartmentalize your day job with your side hustle?

Right now, my "day job" is writing my dissertation, so my time is unstructured, which makes the business side of things easy. I provide white glove service to certain VIPs, sometimes staying up late to provide cashier service to them. But other than that, even with two kids, I can take care of a lot of business on my phone easily. I can feed a toddler mashed potatoes and load a player up for a 5/10 PLO game at the same time. That said, I think it will be more difficult once I start my formal structured day job. Certainly, grinds of playing poker will go down in number and length. My wife might have to take on some light cashier duties throughout the day to keep the players happy while I'm at rehearsals, etc. EDIT: follow up: playing poker for money is such a strange thing to do. I think I'll be leaning back on playing and focusing more on club management/recruitment. Rather than maintaining a bankroll and spending many hours grinding, it just works better with household finances and overall family health to invest more traditionally and spend my time helping my wife and giving my kids attention. Every dollar has value, but every hour of time is inestimably costly in the context of domestic life.

Thanks for the insight OP. Are you accepting PMs?

by ninefingershuffle m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58667295#post58667295)

What’s the smallest amount of currency you’d club a baby seal for, while playing the pipe?

FULL DISCLOSURE: In preparation for this answer, I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2f4C1pbYo YouTube Rescuing Cute Baby Seal Pups | 24 Hours With | BBC Earth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2f4C1pbYo)

video about a rescue mission of baby seals in order to know what I'm dealing with here. Hmm... well. Did you mean to type "pipe organ," the instrument mentioned in my OP? I think most pipes require both hands of the performer. Assuming I were able to develop the coordination required to simultaneously wield a club with any degree of efficacy while performing pipe music, the amount of money would need to be enough to significantly change my life for the better, since it would be quite a traumatic event for me, not to mention the pup. A one-handed clubbing ain't going to be nearly as clean as a two-handed clubbing. 30k should provide a good college fund for the youngest child if I stick it in a mutual fund portfolio now, so there you go. I don't think I would take 29k, either. Ah, the brutality of the food chain.

I have $1000 and I want to start my own poker club. What should I do? Can i become rich?

by 420legalize420 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58667580#post58667580)

I have $1000 and I want to start my own poker club. What should I do? Can i become rich?

You don't need any money to start your own club. You need to know a bunch of people who would be interested in buying in and playing online. That said, if the latter is a good description of your situation but you don't feel like trying to get them to play at the same time in a nightly game, the easiest way for you to make money might be to start an agency in a respected union and invite everyone you know to play there. You won't be in six figure territory until you get quite a few regular higher stakes players in your downline, or if you have your own club, a nightly game of 1/2+ with several tables.

by jb` m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58667336#post58667336)

Thanks for the insight OP. Are you accepting PMs?

Is there a question you have that might be better answered here? I have YouTube and Reddit if you need to chat about a specific situation or whatever.

I've been wary of these bros games for a while due to the amount of collusion I suspect is going on. What happens when collusion is caught in a union on pokerbros? Are funds confiscated by the union from the club? If so what happens to those funds? If they aren't, isn't the club owner getting a freeroll by letting collusion rings run in their club and just keeping the chips when they get banned? I'm assuming they aren't redistributed back to the players and thats why we never hear anything public about cheaters getting caught

by CertifiedDonk m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58668983#post58668983)

I've been wary of these bros games for a while due to the amount of collusion I suspect is going on. What happens when collusion is caught in a union on pokerbros? Are funds confiscated by the union from the club? If so what happens to those funds? If they aren't, isn't the club owner getting a freeroll by letting collusion rings run in their club and just keeping the chips whe... See full post

Collusion is not as common anymore because the bot companies and club accounting system have together made this practice -EV. I had to ask a friend about this one. The answer probably depends on the union, but in the largest one I work with, seized funds (including rake) go directly to a players' fund. This is seeded directly into the BBJ and overlay tourneys hosted by the union. They keep tight control over this and do not pocket the money. In fact, the union loses money on the BBJ, seeding it at a significant loss. However, if the collusion is discovered by a player and specific hand data is reported, rather than the union discovering collusion using IP info or something through the backpage, I see no reason why the union shouldn't be able to return lost funds directly to the players involved.

Do the game runners set the rake themselves or is it already set by the app? I always hear people mention how Rampage and Mariano run app games with criminally high rake. Is it really that high? I never cared enough to check for myself.

by BobbyPeru m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58669681#post58669681)

Do the game runners set the rake themselves or is it already set by the app? I always hear people mention how Rampage and Mariano run app games with criminally high rake. Is it really that high? I never cared enough to check for myself.

The club owners have comprehensive control over all table settings, including rake, fees for tourneys, BBJ, etc. In unions, all is of that set at the union level. I never bothered to check out Splash Squad and the other big box clubs you mentioned, but a quick check in the app reveals that the max allowed rake by the ClubGG app is 10% (10bb cap) and for PBros it's 8% (10bb cap.) So, pretty much the same as a home game in NYC. Interestingly, to set the rake higher than 5% (3bb cap) in PBros, you have to spend diamonds, which cost real money. Most normal unions are around 4-5%ish for NLH, but many private games - the really juicy, splashy ones - can go as high as 8%. Personally, I do not hesitate to buy in to such games when given the opportunity, even if the rake is high. I would much rather play in one of those hole-in-the-wall higher rake home games than grind in bigger unions where the action is noticeably tighter.

Addendum: serious unions spend a lot of time and money figuring out what the rake should be set at, as well as other factors that affect their whole economy. Union heads typically want to reward losing action as much as possible, and don't want to take too much money off the tables too quickly. It's really important for a big union to keep 24/7 action going at 100+nl, and to accomplish that, they can't set the rake too high or else the players will go broke sooner than is desirable. The bot company apparently has an entire team of advisors to help club leaders with this specific issue.

If you had to pick one would you describe your wife as an elephant or a giraffe?

by Brunog m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58671244#post58671244)

If you had to pick one would you describe your wife as an elephant or a giraffe?

Giraffe I guess but why are you trolling on here and reddit... go study some preflop charts.

Hey thanks for sharing this, I've always knew that some of these high VPIP players in the table some of them were bots I have a few questions myself. Let's say you are a club owner, do you usually know what goes on behind the scenes, what the unions decide about the bots, etc? Or is this kept a secret by the admins only

I really appreciate your nuanced, inside take OP. Much better than blanketed "app games are rigged" statements that you'll hear online from more ignorant circles. Thank you! Most or perhaps all of the roles you listed will constantly be sending and receiving money. What are the most common ways that people like superagents and club owners withdraw money/have money sent to them without triggering issues with their money exchange apps and banks?

by Top5Player m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58699336#post58699336)

Let's say you are a club owner, do you usually know what goes on behind the scenes, what the unions decide about the bots, etc? Or is this kept a secret by the admins only

Usually it's kept a secret, but also, it's easy to figure out by looking at the other clubs' data in the union, which is visible and shared. If a club wins for several weeks in a row it's likely a bot ring. However, it's also totally possible for a union head to run some bots and not tell anyone. But if the club consistently won, they would get caught. Accountability is often provided through a tax/rebate system. Each week, a percent of winnings is taken from each club and given to losing clubs. In the long run this evens out to 0. Most of the time, consistently winning clubs are just kicked.

by Wilfram m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58699372#post58699372)

I really appreciate your nuanced, inside take OP. Much better than blanketed "app games are rigged" statements that you'll hear online from more ignorant circles. Thank you!Most or perhaps all of the roles you listed will constantly be sending and receiving money. What are the most common ways that people like superagents and club owners withdraw money/have money sent to them w... See full post

Glad you enjoyed, thanks for pitching in! Ahem, nice try, IRS! Whenever possible, funds are transferred directly between players via peer-to-peer buy ins and cash outs. Usually, avoiding common blunders like putting "poker" in payment descriptions is enough to keep an account going for long enough to not make business inefficient. Also, some social payment methods like venmo and PayPal are surprisingly lenient. Crypto is hard to get players to use but preferred by club owners. I've done a lot of converting venmo to crypto for buddies.

As an app developer who is interested in introducing a new offering to the masses within the club model, what are some features or areas of concentration for user experience (club owners, agents and players) should we hone in on to make a positive impression. And/or, where are the current providers falling short?

Over/under on when will the FBI/DOJ get itchy and bust some of these apps and who will go down first? Wolfgang, Rampage, Owen? Maybe, someone like Rob Farha who is a lesser known player but moves tons of money for the apps? All these fed staffers want to either write a book or run for office like Rep. Dan Goldman with Billy Walters, so seems like it will happen sooner rather than later, like in a new Dem admin.

by 46andTwo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58734738#post58734738)

As an app developer who is interested in introducing a new offering to the masses within the club model, what are some features or areas of concentration for user experience (club owners, agents and players) should we hone in on to make a positive impression. And/or, where are the current providers falling short?

Based on common issues I hear brought up: #1 SECURITY!! If you make it easier for club owners to catch bots in any way shape or form, the players will flock to you and the agents will follow! Kind of like food advertising: If we see "heavy metal free" tomatoes on the shelves, well, we might not have even known the competitors put heavy metals in their tomatoes, so we're going to buy those ones. #2 Graphics: Apps like PokerBros, pppoker, and pokerrr2 look like absolute garbage. A sleek graphic design will definitely attract players. #3 fine tuning for table features, for example tournament addons, 72o/standup game for cash tables, double/triple boards, add ALL of that in and make sure you know about all those little facets of the game. #4 know how the actual business works and make it easy to do union/agent settle up. As of right now, doing a simple settle up takes unions all day or multiple days simply because of the way data is reflected in apps. It's a nightmare of spreadsheets, aggregating player data by hand, and long telegram convos with many screenshots. If the apps had a simple feature to display relevant data over a club/union's data cycle, that would $ave club$ and union$ load$ of time. For example: a club owner should be able to set a superagent at a specific RB percentage in the app, and then be able to click on their name somewhere and just see how much to venmo them. If they had been issued credit this should be deducted. My sister is a software developer and I know the business. If you want to collaborate at any point, she and/or I would love to join your team.

by Lionelhuttz m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58734989#post58734989)

Over/under on when will the FBI/DOJ get itchy and bust some of these apps and who will go down first? Wolfgang, Rampage, Owen? Maybe, someone like Rob Farha who is a lesser known player but moves tons of money for the apps? All these fed staffers want to either write a book or run for office like Rep. Dan Goldman with Billy Walters, so seems like it will happen sooner rather th... See full post

The apps are going to bigger, way bigger, first. They're getting way more attention from streamers and the user base is growing. And these clubs would consider a well-qualified lawyer working on the case full-time to be a minor expense. If a case were to open, they would fight back hard. They would have to change the laws, too, to better define what counts as "currency" or in-game "currency" - already many sites run on the sweepstakes model quite effectively. Clubs aren't going anywhere for a long time. Worst case scenario 5 years before those boomers in office even take notice. Heck, I imagine many people working those government jobs probably load up from time to time. Already the state of Missouri managed to ban PokerBros. I'm not sure how. If and when other states follow suit, it won't even be for all the apps that exist, and others will be sure to pop up and take advantage of loopholes.

you never worry about the legality of running a club on these apps? it seems the punishments for running them can be quite severe despite operating in a "grey area". but then again global poker operates in that same grey area for a long time and doesnt seem to face much push back despite being super public. Im considering running a club on pokerrr2 but worried about the legality despite my club only going to be 30/40 people with one table a couple nights a week.

by FrYoungtrad m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58660389#post58660389)

I've been offered a post as Director of Music at a large Roman Catholic church. Moving today😀 My job will be to conduct the principal choir, maintain and play the pipe organ, plan all liturgical music, organize public performances on campus, and other duties. Roughly 60% of our household income comes from this. The rest is from poker and teaching private lessons.

This is cooler than poker stuff, imo. What exactly do you study, and what is your dissertation on? Making a good career in music is awesome. Well done.

by ES2 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58748657#post58748657)

This is cooler than poker stuff, imo. What exactly do you study, and what is your dissertation on? Making a good career in music is awesome. Well done.

I am always thankful for having such a cool day job! I study a long list of things related to Western music: history, education, performance practice, Gregorian chant, continuo, composition, improvisation, acoustics, liturgy, voice, music engraving, and more. My next project is to become an organ builder so I can take care of the instruments in the area churches. My dissertation is on Kaikhosru Sorabji, an obscure modern British composer. He wrote the most complex and difficult pieces in existence, and some of the longest. However, he did not much care to publish his pieces, so they have not been well studied until today, decades after his death. I appreciate the music questions!😀

Hey. Really appreciate you taking the time to reach out and spread awareness. Currently in the process of starting up my own club and I have some questions to take some guess work out if you don't mind. Please answer as much or as little as you'd like. 1.) I personally am a fan of the interface of Pokerrr 2, the price, and the lack of certain politics. Which app would you recommend? 2.) In terms of growing the club, I have a good connection of players that would want to play online poker to get a basis. How would you recommend scaling to make it an 1000+ person club? 3.) How should I structure rake collection, and what rake percentage would be ideal for sustainability? 4.)How can I ensure the games run smoothly and consistently, even with a smaller player base initially? And anything else you would be willing to share. Thanks and Good luck with your next steps!

by crusherbc m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58750201#post58750201)

Hey. Really appreciate you taking the time to reach out and spread awareness. Currently in the process of starting up my own club and I have some questions to take some guess work out if you don't mind. Please answer as much or as little as you'd like.1.) I personally am a fan of the interface of Pokerrr 2, the price, and the lack of certain politics. Which app would you recomm... See full post

1 - ClubGG is well priced and has the best interface of any of them. I recommend finding a good union in that app. 2 - Give agents the best possible deals at first to grow the base. Consider it an up-front investment. Get streamers, marketing help, and several high powered agents. Get to know people in the field. Don't poach. 3 - This is a very complicated question. It depends on the action, and what numbers you're pulling from week to week. I believe that for clubs to do this truly optimally they need to be changing their rake structure slightly from week to week or maybe even depending on the time of day. However, doing the math - and risking regs noticing and complaining (not realizing if/when rake changes help them) might not be worth the time. You should start with low rake, increase it when you get a nightly game going, and then decrease it again when you want to encourage 24/7 action. From there, find the sweet spot that helps your recreational players survive in the game for longer. That's about all the experience I have with that. 4 - Make sure cashiering is instant. Communicate with the players daily via a telegram or mass text channel. Offer bonuses for first timers and rakeback for the VIPs. It will take a lot of time to build up to the point where you want to be, so don't think of this as a get rich quick scheme. Know that the market is very saturated right now. In pbros and ClubGG, the market is dominated by 1-2 huge unions with 24/7 action that you'll be competing with. You'll have to offer something to your players that those big unions don't. Good luck!

by inf1n1ty13 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58745507#post58745507)

you never worry about the legality of running a club on these apps? it seems the punishments for running them can be quite severe despite operating in a "grey area". but then again global poker operates in that same grey area for a long time and doesnt seem to face much push back despite being super public. Im considering running a club on pokerrr2 but worried about the legalit... See full post

With any poker site, it's a bad idea to have money in there you can't afford to not see for a while, because any of them could go down at any time. However, I think that clubs will out-survive the big sites precisely because they're in that underground grey area, and the government can't just pull the site any time they want. Many larger clubs have connections with lawyers, and you might consider the same as you grow. A much bigger pain in the rear would be the payment platforms and their TOS enforcement. Their automated "security" is sometimes trigger-happy and you have to know what to do with potential chargebacks and scams. However, once you have enough experience with it, and you implement good cashiering infrastructure, this becomes less of a problem.

Thanks man for the insight. Me and my partner switched to ClubGG and have some players that joined. Just finding it difficult to get a consistent game going especially since we are mainly texting our friends to play pretty often and that gets dried out. We have been advertising on a bunch of groups online, but are just having trouble getting a consistent player stream. We have been offering bonuses to those that play, but just find it difficult to scale. Any expert advice to streamline this process? I know it is a grind and not something that can happen overnight, but I gotta think that there is a more consistent way to go about it. Thanks again man.

by crusherbc m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58784056#post58784056)

Thanks man for the insight. Me and my partner switched to ClubGG and have some players that joined. Just finding it difficult to get a consistent game going especially since we are mainly texting our friends to play pretty often and that gets dried out. We have been advertising on a bunch of groups online, but are just having trouble getting a consistent player stream. We have ... See full post

If you're the club owners you should be recruiting a lot like you are but also having agents and incentivizing people to be continuing agents with good rb deals and/or referral bonuses. The highest ROI way to refer seemed to be through tiktok shorts and streams a few months ago. You might try more on social media and having an official presence.

by luz4ggro m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58791224#post58791224)

I only have 1 question, Is it true that they ban winning players? I've heard múltiple stories of players that win 5k+ without using bots or any collusion, just being good players, and still get banned. It's like they only accept losing players. So why would I want to play on private club apps if they only accept fishes?

Some unions do ban winning players over a significant sample size, for a number of reasons. For example, it makes security cheaper and easier. But mostly, it gives the club a "safe" place for recs to play without feeling like they might be getting sharked. It's part of their business model to be as friendly as possible to recs and to keep them playing for as long as possible, paying the house rake over a long period of time instead of getting stacked by winning players and leaving the games sooner. Overall, winning players are viewed in a negative light by people in the ClubGG space - this is less true for other apps. On the other hand, some unions are quite friendly to regs as long as they rake decently and don't belong to an overall winning downline which would be indicative of a stable or team. I'm admittedly confused by your question at the end. A club full of fish is a desirable place to play regardless of whether you're a recreational. If you're a recreational player, you will be in good company with fellow gamblers. If you're a for-profit player, your win rate will increase. I am a winning player (only slightly) but have never been banned. I have been limited by Massiv after about 20k hands though, indicating that their security team could brush up on poker math.

Is there a way I can contact you privately?

You're a skilled writer, organ man. So can you clarify, in broad terms, how the rake gets divvied up? Say I generated 100$ rake in the week and I get 15% of that, how much of the remainder goes to the agent, club, platform? Roundabout...

by crusherbc m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58796934#post58796934)

Is there a way I can contact you privately?

You could DM me here or find me on the internet, but if you have a question or need help with a specific situation I'm sure just posting here would be better.

by c double m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58800385#post58800385)

You're a skilled writer, organ man. So can you clarify, in broad terms, how the rake gets divvied up? Say I generated 100$ rake in the week and I get 15% of that, how much of the remainder goes to the agent, club, platform? Roundabout...

Thanks for the compliment. I've definitely had to improve my wordsmith skills a lot over the course of these degrees, through necessity... The answer to your question varies greatly, depending on the situation. But here's what I would consider a "standard" deal - I would estimate that half or more of all deals are structured somewhat like this: Union: takes 10% Club owner: takes 90%, and shares it as follows: Superagent: 70% Agent: 55% Player: 0%-50%. Whales get more and regs get less. Often, any entity at the level of SA or lower will be on what we call a "sliding scale." For example, in one union, if my guys generate 1k or less in a week, I get 65%, 1k-2k is 70%, and 2k+ is 80% (or thereabouts, I'm not reporting the numbers exactly.)

by limon m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58660199#post58660199)

i cant imagine why anyone on earth wold want to live in a neighborhood run by mercenary gangs or play on a bot and collusion filled rake raped app game.

Me either. But to each their own.

What are your thoughts on running a rake free app game for legal purposes building up a player base then selling it to someone who will charge rake?

Accused of using a BOT I play in GGclub and cashed last night. I think the owners just didn’t want to pay me so they accused me of using a bot. Any way to disprove this to them?? We were playing PLO on the GGapp and the swings are so crazy in PLO. how the hell would someone even be able to use any type of bot at this game 🤷🏻*♂️ Any advice would be great. I want to get my money

So me and my partner are currently in smaller union, just trying to build up our action. Across bonuses, security deposit, and other expenses we seem to be tight for money. We are thinking about trying to "club hop" in order to climb up with better action. We have some smaller stake players, but are doing through growing pains. Any advice is very much appreciated.

We have been proposed with the opportunity to join a seemingly established and trusted union. Like most of course it requires a security deposit that is just a touch out of reach. Do you suggest getting the funds to join that union and plan to be there long term? I feel like that would give me the best opportunity to grow my club with games running 24/7 and taking a lot of the work load off of the sole owner. Thanks

by abacus95 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58813570#post58813570)

What are your thoughts on running a rake free app game for legal purposes building up a player base then selling it to someone who will charge rake?

Not a good plan IMO. Who is the buyer to say the players won't notice the rake change then leave saying they were bait and switched? Deals and schemes like this never work. Just run a normal game and be transparent with everyone.

by Bigpapipoker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58814665#post58814665)

Accused of using a BOTI play in GGclub and cashed last night. I think the owners just didn’t want to pay me so they accused me of using a bot. Any way to disprove this to them?? We were playing PLO on the GGapp and the swings are so crazy in PLO. how the hell would someone even be able to use any type of bot at this game 🤷🏻*♂️ Any advice would ... See full post

They are scumming you. Figure out who is in charge of the union and tell them. Call them out here if you want, too.

by Bigpapipoker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58814665#post58814665)

Accused of using a BOTI play in GGclub and cashed last night. I think the owners just didn’t want to pay me so they accused me of using a bot. Any way to disprove this to them?? We were playing PLO on the GGapp and the swings are so crazy in PLO. how the hell would someone even be able to use any type of bot at this game 🤷🏻*♂️ Any advice would ... See full post

They are scumming you. Figure out who is in charge of the union and tell them. They should be able to withhold funds from that agent. Call them out here if you want, too.

by crusherbc m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58815477#post58815477)

We have been proposed with the opportunity to join a seemingly established and trusted union. Like most of course it requires a security deposit that is just a touch out of reach. Do you suggest getting the funds to join that union and plan to be there long term? I feel like that would give me the best opportunity to grow my club with games running 24/7 and taking a lot of the... See full post

Judging by what you've said it sounds like you should be running a superagency, not a full club in the union.

by 46andTwo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58734738#post58734738)

As an app developer who is interested in introducing a new offering to the masses within the club model, what are some features or areas of concentration for user experience (club owners, agents and players) should we hone in on to make a positive impression. And/or, where are the current providers falling short?

Open to PM?

by sleazydonkey01 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58820585#post58820585)

Open to PM?

You can PM me but if you have a question that would be beneficial to others here, go for it!

Hey! I read your insights about poker clubs and found them really valuable—thanks for sharing! I wanted to reach out because I’m in a bit of a similar situation and could use some advice. Recently, I’ve been playing in a GGClub that a friend of mine opened. The club has around 70 players, and I’ve recruited 5-6 of them, including two high-stakes players. One of them consistently generates 5-10k in rake weekly. Despite this, I’m only receiving 5-10% of the rake, and the club owners aren’t willing to offer me a better deal. (The rake itself is 5% and rake back 50% to the players) I’ve been thinking about starting my own club with a partner. We have a base of about 15 trustworthy players, and I believe this could grow as people bring friends. However, we’re concerned about sustainability and whether just relying on “friends bringing friends” is enough to keep the games running consistently. Would you have any advice for someone starting out in this space? Alternatively, would you be open to potentially cooperating? If you’re interested, I’d love for you to check out the games we have in the current club. The games only run at night but are full of action—stakes vary between 1/2 and 5/10, with games ranging from Hold’em to PLO and PLO5.

I'm in a club with good traffic on pokerbros. At $20 - $60 stakes should I be worried about bots or collusion? Is it a thing where in a popular club you'd say someone runs into bots or collusion 5% or less of sessions? Or is it higher than that? If yes what % would you guess? Tyvm.

Very interesting thread . Thanks for all the info . You mention a few times the club owners pay alot for securities . 1.What exactly the security is doing ? How do they prevent from playing together ? Or sharing cards between players ? Which is the most common collusion , specifically in Plo. 2.Any other collusion types to worry about ? 3.Are there also bots which are there for profits and not by the club owners ? 4.Have you heard about super users which runs very well and hit anything they chase ?

I skimmed, so sorry if this has been covered. In Pokerrrr2, besides bots and the obvious player collusion, is there any way to cheat from the backend (card manipulation, etc.)? Can anyone besides the owner of the game or hosts incorporate bots into a game/club -- can a player be his own bot w/o the owner/host knowing about it? Edit: just realized the post above is similar. Sorry about that -- still very curious. Thanks.

You make it sound as if anyone can become an agent, provided they have players. How does one start an agency? Is there a minimum amount of players/action you have to bring in to keep the agency?

My friends and I also run a club mostly for home games and a few buddies we've made at our local casinos. Still an interesting read into what the bigger clubs and unions do though. We also use ClubGG, and only have around 40 players.. Usually get a few games going every other week and the challenge is to grow it. We plan to expand and advertise more in the near future though.

by Cardead m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58861793#post58861793)

Very interesting thread . Thanks for all the info . You mention a few times the club owners pay alot for securities . 1.What exactly the security is doing ? How do they prevent from playing together ? Or sharing cards between players ? Which is the most common collusion , specifically in Plo. 2.Any other collusion types to worry about ? 3.Are there also bots which are there for... See full post

Thanks for your questions. Happy to answer them:

1. Security monitors for duplicate accounts and collusion through IP tracing. They can see pretty easily if players are consistently playing the same tables, tourneys, etc. I have been in clubs where it's pretty clear teams are playing the tourneys if not also card sharing, so I always make sure to contact security to make sure it's good before I play in a club. They also check for bot activity, which is sgain pretty easy to detect using the software provided to unions. Especially in good clubs that limit or ban consistently winning players, collision is rare. In any case a secure union in a club app is way more collusion free on average than a normal site.
2. As long as security is good, collusion isn't really an issue in clubs like it is with normal sites.
3. Yes. Don't play in a bot ring!
4. I don't believe there is any hack like that. Even if there was, union security would catch it pretty quickly. I hope that clears up at least some of what you wanted to know!

by Javanewt m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58861847#post58861847)

I skimmed, so sorry if this has been covered. In Pokerrrr2, besides bots and the obvious player collusion, is there any way to cheat from the backend (card manipulation, etc.)? Can anyone besides the owner of the game or hosts incorporate bots into a game/club -- can a player be his own bot w/o the owner/host knowing about it?Edit: just realized the post above is similar. Sorry... See full post

Hi! I'm not too familiar with that app, but I have zero doubt that most talk about superusers just arises from superstition. Yes, theoretically anyone could run the bot software, but in most cases the bots will be easily discovered and the dirty agent's or club's funds will be seized. The information for the corrupt owner or agent, and his players' IDs, will be known and that person will have a tough time getting into any reputable union. So really the only way to run bots profitably is if the club or union knows about it.

by c double m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58863489#post58863489)

You make it sound as if anyone can become an agent, provided they have players. How does one start an agency? Is there a minimum amount of players/action you have to bring in to keep the agency?

YES - that's the beauty of it - anyone could become an agent if they have several active players. The answer to your second question depends on the union.

by YokaiPoker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58866571#post58866571)

My friends and I also run a club mostly for home games and a few buddies we've made at our local casinos. Still an interesting read into what the bigger clubs and unions do though. We also use ClubGG, and only have around 40 players.. Usually get a few games going every other week and the challenge is to grow it. We plan to expand and advertise more in the near future though.

You'd be surprised how often casual games like yours turn into major operations. Play your cards right with it. Be fair to others who you meet. Don't get greedy.

by pilya99 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58859318#post58859318)

Hey!I read your insights about poker clubs and found them really valuable-thanks for sharing! I wanted to reach out because I'm in a bit of a similar situation and could use some advice.Recently, I've been playing in a GGClub that a friend of mine opened. The club has around 70 players, and I've recruited 5-6 of them, including two high-stakes players. One of them consistently ... See full post

10% on your whole downline is ridiculously low. You could do whatever you want like start a private game and/or join up with a reliable union, but whatever you do you need to get out of your current situation ASAP. That numbers setup with a default mandatory 50% rb to the players is extremely weird. The referral model can be extremely effective. Make sure you provide bonuses to those who recruit and take good care of your agents.

What is the best way to find an agent for clubs on ClubGG, or other poker platforms?

How do you find an union host and how to check if they're legit overall? I am in asian with a good base of players but finding a good union host to work with has proven to be quite difficult

by Entrenko m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58946676#post58946676)

What is the best way to find an agent for clubs on ClubGG, or other poker platforms

The best thing to do would be to get connected with one through someone you know irl. Like, through a home game or something. That's by far the best and least risky way. But not the only way to find a reputable agent. Other ways just come with more risk, like anything involving money and strangers on the internet.

Brilliant insights into the current state of Poker economy. I am so glad I clicked and read this thread. Recently I took over a Poker project for a crypto casino and we launched the software last month. We started building it as a club actually with only verified players being able to participate in the guaranteed tournaments and we are rolling out password protected tables as well. My question is what will be our main obstacles in becoming like a big club on any of the apps I see agents as affiliates, password protected tables will enable only certain players can play at certain tables. We are bot free for now as it's new software and only browser based at this time so no locally stored HH which makes for bots very hard to run and data mine on other players. What other advantage would a club owner have on an existing app rather than organizing scheduled play with us The casino already has 3000 Poker accounts made, mainly coming from their casino userbase but it's hard to jump start play without someone opening the action and these are not the kind of players that would do it on their own but I am sure they would join the action once it's available. Like you suggested I am in touch with friends who run clubs elsewhere and we are discussing a deal but would love to hear from you what else should we be doing, paying attention to or developing further. To be clear we don't want to be a club app but rather be like one big club in an app as a starting position to creating a standalone network.

I play 6max PLO games that feature majority of the villains open limping and over limping, high vpip numbers over 60% and 70%, almost never folding preflop to any number of raises, nearly all pots are 4+ players... and winners are often showing really unusual starting hand choices (which is expected if they are playing 70% of their hands I suppose). How can one tell if these are true fish tables, or if they are bot rings?

The last thing I heard about the OP is that he went into a trance playing the pipe organ and never came out of it. They say the sounds he produced were so beautiful that a tear dropped from the Mary's statue eye.

by ChipPyles m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59122450#post59122450)

I play 6max PLO games that feature majority of the villains open limping and over limping, high vpip numbers over 60% and 70%, almost never folding preflop to any number of raises, nearly all pots are 4+ players... and winners are often showing really unusual starting hand choices (which is expected if they are playing 70% of their hands I suppose).How can one tell if these are... See full post

Folks, witness a bro who has discovered the goldmine and cannot cope. If you're a plo player, find a good agent NOW and get in. He's not lying anout how the games play. I myself have been strongly considering switching to PLO because of the above. In apps, you still have to get to 10/20plo before this starts to go away. Side note, there's an interesting tangent to be made about in-app anti-collusion features. ClubGG for example has the option for the table creator to hide hole cards until it's the player's preflop action. Lately I have been wondering how much this hypothetically reduces the edge of card sharing bots when combined with rake and in-house security. Maybe a PLO math expert can comment on this.

by megalodonk m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59122208#post59122208)

Recently I took over a Poker project for a crypto casino and we launched the software last month.

You asked about the complexities of building a player base, which is certainly covered in this thread, but the #1 thing I would say to a new poker site developer is that the design should be the main focus above all else. If you have a good design, the players will come. There's only one site I know of matching your description. If it's the one I'm thinking about, the design sucks but the premise is good. Most new sites skimp on design and lose significant potential market share. Look at poker bros. Their design is so, so, so bad. They lost to clubgg simply because they were unwilling to even hire one guy who had played online poker before to offer feedback on the design. Millions down the drain because of leadership overlooking the importance of app design. Oof.

Awesome stuff! I won't post here which site I took over as Mike is on my ass for spamming 😃 but I feel confident now that we are on good track as I wouldn't have taken this with crap software. Thanks for the feedback, your post really helped me to catch up to the current state of Poker economy.

As long as you are not repetitively promoting/spamming it, you can mention it here.

by FrYoungtrad m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59179780#post59179780)

You asked about the complexities of building a player base, which is certainly covered in this thread, but the #1 thing I would say to a new poker site developer is that the design should be the main focus above all else. If you have a good design, the players will come.There's only one site I know of matching your description. If it's the one I'm thinking about, the design suc... See full post

Regarding the design, everything does look logical, of course, but I would still put the offers first (rake, rakeback, promos), followed by the quality of the player pool (number of tables, soft pool vs. reg-fest), trust in clubs/agents, and the cashout process

Why do you not use crypto as chips? That way you don't have to get involved with the finance aspect of running it, which has significant admin costs. Seems like you'd profit more imo, but idk, you're the expert.

Are Massive and TMT union pro-bot or anti-bot? Some of us are suspicious that Massive has been bringing in a lot of tough exploit bots lately.

by Videopro m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59183388#post59183388)

As long as you are not repetitively promoting/spamming it, you can mention it here.

Here's the link to our officail thread: https://twoplustwo.com/Online-Poker-Site... (https://twoplustwo.com/Online-Poker-Sites/13ot4/Bspinio-Official-thread)

Have you heard of this software, is this real? spam (https://www.twoplustwo.com/spam)

by megalodonk m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198561#post59198561)

Here's the link to our officail thread: https://twoplustwo.com/Online-Poker-Site... (https://twoplustwo.com/Online-Poker-Sites/13ot4/Bspinio-Official-thread)

sadly you made it using the new version of the site which hides it from the 99% of users who refuse to switch over from the legacy if you make it in the legacy forumserver prefix then both new and legacy users can see it - i would dm a mod for help

by c double m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59210426#post59210426)

Have you heard of this software, is this real? spam (https://www.twoplustwo.com/spam)

() either you are the scammer who made this site... or i got some oceanfront property to sell you in iowa

by FrYoungtrad m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58668316#post58668316)

by 420legalize420 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58667580#post58667580)

I have $1000 and I want to start my own poker club. What should I do? Can i become rich?

You don't need any money to start your own club. You need to know a bunch of people who would be interested in buying in and playing online. That said, if the latter is a good description of your situation but you don't feel like trying to get them to play at the same time in a nightly game,... See full post

I want do to the same thing but instead of pocketing the net income, give it all to charity. What should I do?

by yeetmachine m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59184641#post59184641)

Regarding the design, everything does look logical, of course, but I would still put the offers first (rake, rakeback, promos), followed by the quality of the player pool (number of tables, soft pool vs. reg-fest), trust in clubs/agents, and the cashout process

Make sure to get a head start on security now because if you don't, the second a hand reader starts supporting your app, you're done.

by Matka_Boza m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59210675#post59210675)

I want do to the same thing but instead of pocketing the net income, give it all to charity. What should I do

Explicitly label it as a charity game, be transparent about fees and security, and which charity you're supporting. Gl

by c double m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59210426#post59210426)

Have you heard of this software, is this real? spam (https://www.twoplustwo.com/spam)

This is super sketchy. Would not be surprised if it's a straight up scam and doesn't exist.

by rickroll m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59210469#post59210469)

by megalodonk m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198561#post59198561)

Here's the link to our officail thread: https://twoplustwo.com/Online-Poker-Site... (https://twoplustwo.com/Online-Poker-Sites/13ot4/Bspinio-Official-thread)

sadly you made it using the new version of the site which hides it from the 99% of users who refuse to switch over from the legacy if you make it in the legacy forumserver prefix then both new and legacy users can see it - i would dm a mod for help

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/292/online-poker-sites/bspin-io-official-thread-1851736/ Here it is. The thread itself was created on the legacy forum.

hi can I reach out to u privately

Hi, I also need help from you guys.