ClubWPTGold - RNG discussion

I should be up a lot. The games do seem incredible. Thats why it feels off to not be up a lot after a decent amount of hands. Certainly enough to know my edge should be very significant. There is only so many times random hands can flop the nuts in 4 bet pots before any reasonable person should start questioning what is going on. They aren't even trying to advertise themselves as a legitimate poker site because legitimate poker sites aren't generally allowed....

Edit/MH: This and the next fifty or so posts have been moved to this dedicated thread from https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/292/o... (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/292/online-poker-sites/clubwptgold-unofficial-thread-1845892/) Please post your comments about the RNG, preferably with some appropriate evidence, here. Thank you.

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59197591#post59197591)

The only time I have thought something was up with the RNG in 20 years of playing online poker was after I had been playing on Ignition for a while and then it came out shortly after there were bot rings capable of sharing hole cardsI also know what it feels like to have a massive edge (10bb+) playing on Global, and I also know what it feels like to play hundreds of thousands o... See full post

yeah, this summarized how I feel quite well. we don't have a way to get evidence, and without evidence there's not much left to say except be warned and be wary.

Rigging RNG seems like a wasted effort in today’s landscape of big data, AI solutions and GTO solvers. Just my opinion. My skepticism has nothing to do with RNG. Well looks like I’m in the wrong place now.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198084#post59198084)

Rigging RNG seems like a wasted effort in today’s landscape of big data, AI solutions and GTO solvers. Just my opinion. My skepticism has nothing to do with RNG. Well looks like I’m in the wrong place now.

What is your skepticism? I think most will agree there's bots and collusion because lets be real, it's online poker and there is always bots and collusion.

Hey Mike Haven, How do you propose someone posts "appropriate evidence"? Do you have a way to collect hand histories? No? Oh, okay.

Since the conversation was broken out into a new thread I will address the current largest pushbacks:

1. Where is your evidence 1a. How?
2. Rigging the RNG is dumb for the operator 2a. Something feeling off about the RNG doesn't have to culminate in the RNG being rigged. In fact, I don't know that there has ever been a case where the RNG came back rigged. Plenty of cases where that off feeling lead to something else though
3. Why would WPT ruin their reputation? 3a. Assuming they know there is something amiss? Its not WPT anymore. WPT sold to China a year ago. They have WPT Global already. Club WPT Gold is something completely different. Anyways, not sure why this would need its own thread. Not sure why its controversial to mention that something feels off. Clearly its a common thought. I wouldn't have made this comment at all if a thread hadn't been broken out.

by Deoxyribo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59197284#post59197284)

The bolded part is it. People are used to tight 6max games, and gold is 8max with antes and straddles. Its a completely different beast and it seems like people are not used to it. The only thing people have behind their arguments are "vibes". It's moronic and annoying, and ruins this thread that can have useful discussion, and derails it with ZOMG THE RNG based on nothing but ... See full post

Your comment implies that the games are juicy and would allow for large winrates and I agree but the rest of your comment seems contradictory to the original point

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198110#post59198110)

What is your skepticism? I think most will agree there's bots and collusion because lets be real, it's online poker and there is always bots and collusion.

I’m skeptical about the ethical use of AI solutions and mass data analysis to curate player experiences. Behavior profiles have been in use for a long time to combat cheating but now companies can use similar metrics to determine stats like Customer Life Time Value. They can calculate estimates of how much each player will contribute to the ecosystem. They have sole access to every hand you’ve played on the site. Im sure you can think of some ways this information could be used against players without needing to rig RNG at all. I think a lot of players erroneously assume sites have an incentive to juice pots for max rake, but their actual goal is to maintain a stable, raked environment for as long as possible.

I also just automatically wary of anything that seems too good to be true and that’s been this site for a year now. Some of the plays I’ve seen combined with the massive amount of players feels off to me. I don’t believe vlog watchers can fully explain the amount of traffic.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59194753#post59194753)

Ok? I’m not a lawyer and I’m not here to argue semantics. What is your point? If you’re playing poker in America in 42 of the 50 states you’re playing unregulated poker. Is clubwptgold jumping through all these hoops for the fun of it?

He's saying that any online poker site has to be defined as an unlawful gambling site, in legal terms, for the UIGEA to be applicable to them Poker is not gambling depending on its legal definition Point being the highlighted part of the screenshot you posted isn't accurate

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198143#post59198143)

Hey Mike Haven, How do you propose someone posts "appropriate evidence"? Do you have a way to collect hand histories? No? Oh, okay.

If there is no way to record or collect HHs, even one at a time, then all of this discussion is just based on the "feelings" of a relatively very low percentage of their players? Should I move it to the "Riggies' thread" until someone finds a way to give any type of hard evidence? Surely almost everyone would prefer that accusations and allegations are backed up with some sort of documentary proof? by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198171#post59198171)

Since the conversation was broken out into a new thread I will address the current largest pushbacks:1. Where is your evidence1a. How?2. Rigging the RNG is dumb for the operator2a. Something feeling off about the RNG doesn't have to culminate in the RNG being rigged. In fact, I don't know that there has ever been a case where the RNG came back rigged. Plenty of cases where th... See full post

I noticed that your post seemed to spark off the following 50 posts over a few days; now all being in this dedicated thread. I looked back and there was no other post for at least two weeks that would have been as reasonable, suitable or relevant as the new thread's OP. By creating the new thread, it helps those who want to discuss the important topic of a possible RNG issue, without interrupting those who want to discuss other site benefits and problems issues, for which the poker site threads are mainly used.

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198171#post59198171)

Since the conversation was broken out into a new thread I will address the current largest pushbacks:

1. Where is your evidence 1a. How?

This is the point where you should stand in front of a mirror and say: "I should quit Poker forever because I am not smart enough!"

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59194665#post59194665)

Almost everything humans touch becomes corrupted by greed and money. But for some reason poker players think that poker site operators are more virtuous than the Pope. I’ll never understand lol.It’s not like the developers would be making code alterations to single out a certain player.Systems that force the majority of a player base to sit around a 50% winrate are standard i... See full post

Ecclesiastes 7 29 "God made man upright,but man has gone in search of many schemes"

Yea, it’s fine guys. We should stop this pointless debate. 8 handed plus a bunch of recs playing a bunch of hands equate to tons of mw spots which in return just naturally leads to a ton of variance. I’m more suspicious on how the hell do they get so many whales on the site. Who tf is BronnyDog 5b jamming pre with K432r? Where do they find these ppl lmao.

In my experience, NLH RNG is rigged but PLO is fair. Or maybe NLH games are just tougher and I’m worse at it 😃 by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59199822#post59199822)

Yea, it’s fine guys. We should stop this pointless debate. 8 handed plus a bunch of recs playing a bunch of hands equate to tons of mw spots which in return just naturally leads to a ton of variance. I’m more suspicious on how the hell do they get so many whales on the site. Who tf is BronnyDog 5b jamming pre with K432r? Where do they find these ppl lmao.

Used to ask this all the time during the pandemic app club days. Put some marketing dollars towards it and I guess there are more of them out there than you would think

Any winning MTT regs in here? Have you noticed that you consistently play with the same players constantly? 1500 player pools and I see the same people every tournament, like an absurd amount, almost as if they're pairing up winning players. In 2024 WPT Global president said "It's very common for new players to have a bad experience," said Scott. "And when they do they don't come back and they're gone. They're taking their dollars elsewhere. So we use AI to ensure a balanced skill mix at the tables."

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024/10/wpt-global-podcast-juicier-games-higher-win-rates-47138.htm pokernews WPT Global President Promises "Juicier" Games and Higher Win Rates than GGPoker (https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024/10/wpt-global-podcast-juicier-games-higher-win-rates-47138.htm)

On top of that the amount of times I've gone from the BB to the SB to the BTN to immediately get a table change and moved to UTG is ridiculous. Like I get it could happen, I mean it shouldn't but fine **** happens but it is so constant it's incredible.

by SIGH_I_CALL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59200156#post59200156)

On top of that the amount of times I've gone from the BB to the SB to the BTN to immediately get a table change and moved to UTG is ridiculous. Like I get it could happen, I mean it shouldn't but fine **** happens but it is so constant it's incredible.

I'm cash not but the a few montsh ago I was only play MMT and this made me leave their site. Table Jump...wait 2 hands to play in a turbo tourney. Play one hand from the button...table jump...now I'm UTG. Play until button...table jump. Now I'm HJ. Just insane and must be AI coding. There is no way a human coded that system and looked at what was happening and said...this seems fair. and normal They are not even consolidating people from "high number" tables to the lower, longer lasting tables. They just shift everyone around. Its like some bizarre zoom/spin thing but they never say it.

Ya it's so frustrating especially in a turbo PKO, nothing like going from 12bb to 8bb in less than an orbit without playing a hand.

I just put a one outer on a guy for a 6K pot. Wow! So lucky That helps out quite a bit actually

by SIGH_I_CALL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59200156#post59200156)

Any winning MTT regs in here? Have you noticed that you consistently play with the same players constantly? 1500 player pools and I see the same people every tournament, like an absurd amount, almost as if they're pairing up winning players. In 2024 WPT Global president said "It's very common for new players to have a bad experience," said Scott. "And when they do they don't co... See full post

I think that is a natural phenomenon as the stronger players consistently go deeper than losing players. So you and other winning players will end up facing each other a disproportionate amount of the time. However, I am worried about the use of AI to create a “fair and equitable” playing field for all players. As far as I can tell, Alex Scott no longer works for WPT and WPT was bought by a private equity firm sometime in 2021. There’s basically no available information on the firm Element Partners, LLC. Personally, when I hear private equity I just assume they’ve thrown all ethical and moral qualms out the window in favor of chasing immediate profits. My baseless hunch is they’re interested in implementing a system that benefit the overall health of the ecosystem by flattening win and loss rates. Possibly by using data driven player profiles.

by Mike Haven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198598#post59198598)

If there is no way to record or collect HHs, even one at a time, then all of this discussion is just based on the "feelings" of a relatively very low percentage of their players? Should I move it to the "Riggies' thread" until someone finds a way to give any type of hard evidence? Surely almost everyone would prefer that accusations and allegations are backed up with some sort ... See full post

Surely you have some proof that everything is on the up and up? Something from the gaming commission? Some independent audit results? A perfect record of well trusted sites like Full Tilt, UB, Absolute, Bovada, etc. operating with flawless records? The "don't talk about it until you have proof" line is so unrelentingly trite.

hows the rng here? i heard if you blow on the screen before the river comes out you always win

by dragonrider m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59203435#post59203435)

hows the rng here? i heard if you blow on the screen before the river comes out you always win

I'll repeat - you are an adult male who named yourself "dragonrider" and has never had anything interesting to say. Nobody will ever take you seriously.

by dragonrider m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59203435#post59203435)

hows the rng here? i heard if you blow on the screen before the river comes out you always win

How hard are you blowing? It’s not working for me, dragonrider.

I saw a guy on Twitter who’s won 23k in bounties in the 100k mb since the new year. He’s must be blowing something https://x.com/shonuff_wptgold/status/200... (https://x.com/shonuff_wptgold/status/2008318426134311003?s=46&t=eLBbSnSnv9s7Fq4FCVxOMA)

Some smart people tell me there probably is something going on here. usually the perpetrators are not the billion dollar corporations its the people in it trying to become also become rich. Also the sweepstakes model is just a short term gimmick untill governments crack down on it. I don't see wpt gold having a long term future so theirs much less to lose

by MoViN.tArGeT m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59207437#post59207437)

Some smart people tell me there probably is something going on here. usually the perpetrators are not the billion dollar corporations its the people in it trying to become also become rich. Also the sweepstakes model is just a short term gimmick untill governments crack down on it. I don't see wpt gold having a long term future so theirs much less to lose

the reality is people are likely being teamed on in formats that are highly susceptible to collusion like plo cash. tournaments are stupid easy to print on and havnt seen anything weird there.

All I know is i keep losing in the most absurd ways imaginable and I am never running good. Grinds you down losing 80% of your All ins every session when you are ahead 90% of them. Its absolutely relentless. Feels like playing a slot machine, only worse, because its supposed to be poker

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59207989#post59207989)

All I know is i keep losing in the most absurd ways imaginable and I am never running good. Grinds you down losing 80% of your All ins every session when you are ahead 90% of them. Its absolutely relentless. Feels like playing a slot machine, only worse, because its supposed to be poker

All i know is in 36k hands i've hit 3-4 royals, 4-5 straight flushes, and like an insane amount of quads. i feel like i see ppl hit quads almost everyday, i even hit quads today and the other guy rivered nut boat lmao. i'm not complaining but even winning this just feels off.

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59211220#post59211220)

All i know is in 36k hands i've hit 3-4 royals, 4-5 straight flushes, and like an insane amount of quads. i feel like i see ppl hit quads almost everyday, i even hit quads today and the other guy rivered nut boat lmao. i'm not complaining but even winning this just feels off.

I’ve played 200k hands and it’s a little joke to myself because everyday it’s oh there’s my daily quads. Playing on this site there’s a fear in the back of my mind to play my normal game because it feels like everyone will just have it more then they should. Something is off

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59211220#post59211220)

All i know is in 36k hands i've hit 3-4 royals, 4-5 straight flushes, and like an insane amount of quads. i feel like i see ppl hit quads almost everyday, i even hit quads today and the other guy rivered nut boat lmao. i'm not complaining but even winning this just feels off.

This is my experience too. In less than 100k hands I've hit more royals than I have in millions of hands across multiple sites over the last 15 years. Which is also why I didn't respond to the idea of ''this format just has higher variance'', like **** it does.

You guys must not play a lot of PLO if that’s peculiar. I see someone with quads or a straight flush every single live PLO session I play and that’s slow as ****. 4 tabling online a quick 2-3 hour session nets me the same result. Someone is gonna get quads or a straight flush at one of the tables over the sample. This site is by far the softest site ever. What are we actually bitching about? I feel like it’s actually impossible to lose on this site. 35k hands in and winrates are astronomical right now.

Despite what many people probably think, my first thought wasn't "wow this site is rigged", it was "maybe I'm missing something" I'm not. I think my conservative edge in these games is 20bb/100. It could be much higher to be honest. These games are better than 2006 pokerstars You are right, it should be nearly impossible to be down with such a massive edge after 30k hands. I guess I am just running in the 99.9th percentile of running bad. Or maybe the site is jenk.

by Sensaation3 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59212341#post59212341)

I’ve played 200k hands and it’s a little joke to myself because everyday it’s oh there’s my daily quads. Playing on this site there’s a fear in the back of my mind to play my normal game because it feels like everyone will just have it more then they should. Something is off

Same experience for me. Have played millions of hands across pretty much every site and I have never expected to make quads every day. I am up money on the site (less than it feels like I should be) and even when I'm winning it feels shady. Card distribution, "action" turns and rivers, it all just feels wrong.

More I play the more I think some amount of card sharing is happening. Would track with all the regs saying they're running way below ev. Went playing everyone to game selecting hard. Should start tallying but I don't remember the last sessions I didn't make quads in

kinda wild how many different winning players are certain something is up with this site. have more royals on here in relatively few hands than in millions on all other sites combined. sb1234 was my biggest hater/troll in my pgc back in the day telling me I would never make it after my 6 year-to-that-date sun run ended so when I saw he posted I lowkey expected him to come out saying we're a bunch of shitregs who can't keep up.

I am a roughly 20bb/100 winner at PLO25, and a roughly 14bb/100 winner at PLO50 over millions of hands between stars, GG and ipoker. I am also a winning player at plo 100 and 200 but smaller samples. I am used to massive downswings and understand variance. These games at WPTGold are the softest I have seen in over 15 years. I am unable to win on the site. It's probably collusion more than RNG but I just know my spidey senses are tingling. I feel like with games this bad my EV adjusted win rate should be 30+bb/100. The last time I felt like this playing on a site Russ Hamilton was my opponent. I will give it another 30-40k hands to be sure but I won't be shocked if in the future we find out there was some type of fuckery going on .

I’m winning at 25bb/100 over 40k hands at PLO100 and I may be running below EV. If you are losing on this site there’s something fundamentally wrong with how you are playing. Oh and I saw quads yesterday in my online session that was 3 hours long and I saw both a straight flush and quads at my 6 hour live session right after. These are standard occurrences in PLO.

by TheLoser m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59214326#post59214326)

I am a roughly 20bb/100 winner at PLO25, and a roughly 14bb/100 winner at PLO50 over millions of hands between stars, GG and ipoker. I am also a winning player at plo 100 and 200 but smaller samples. I am used to massive downswings and understand variance. These games at WPTGold are the softest I have seen in over 15 years. I am unable to win on the site. It's probably collusi... See full post

If these winrates you claim are true, why the hell don't you move up after holding double digit wr for millions of hands. Absolutely moronic if true.

Quads of the day. I lead 3 times in this limped pot into flopped top boat so needed perfect perfect, but not a problem on clubwptgold

()

I made quads as did another person within ten minutes of me posting this hand. I'm 4 tabling

by tgiggity m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59214259#post59214259)

kinda wild how many different winning players are certain something is up with this site. have more royals on here in relatively few hands than in millions on all other sites combined.sb1234 was my biggest hater/troll in my pgc back in the day telling me I would never make it after my 6 year-to-that-date sun run ended so when I saw he posted I lowkey expected him to come out sa... See full post

Both things can be true....Jokes aside we can agree on one thing at least Hope all is well

Another day playing live PLO. 9 hour session. I saw one straight flush and quads twice at my table. RIGGED!

by SB1234 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215322#post59215322)

Both things can be true....Jokes aside we can agree on one thing at least Hope all is well

haha thanks, I have a lot to be grateful for. hope all is well with you too. You were definitely right about those whale filled games on bodog not lasting... simpler times for sure :(

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215353#post59215353)

Another day playing live PLO. 9 hour session. I saw one straight flush and quads twice at my table. RIGGED!

9 hour session playing 4 tables around 1800 hands. Seeing that on a regular basis is a standard occurrence? Are you mentally handicapped?

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59216509#post59216509)

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215353#post59215353)

Another day playing live PLO. 9 hour session. I saw one straight flush and quads twice at my table. RIGGED!

9 hour session playing 4 tables around 1800 hands. Seeing that on a regular basis is a standard occurrence? Are you mentally handicapped?

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59216509#post59216509)

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215353#post59215353)

Another day playing live PLO. 9 hour session. I saw one straight flush and quads twice at my table. RIGGED!

9 hour session playing 4 tables around 1800 hands. Seeing that on a regular basis is a standard occurrence? Are you mentally handicapped?

If you aren’t seeing it you are not table selecting hard enough. I played a 2 hour session last night 4 tables and saw quads twice. To clarify, this does not mean I had these hands myself. It means someone at one of my tables showed down these hands. Literally happens every single PLO session I’ve ever played on every site and live.

Lost to quads and a straight flush in today’s session Rigged!

Decided to fire up a late night session. Played 4 hands before they quit. I'd be spooked too

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by Doorbread m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59219952#post59219952)

Decided to fire up a late night session. Played 4 hands before they quit. I'd be spooked too... See full post

Look at the hands in play lmfao Q973 trip suited and A554 suited to the 5 What a great fucken site haha. Games are good boys!

I also feel like something if off with the run-outs at WPT. I've got tens of thousands of hands at each Ignition, Coin Poker, and WPT Gold, and WPT definitely has a weird feel. I don't know how to describe it. I was just chalking it up to variance but I've seen enough other seasoned players have the same feeling that I'm starting to lean towards that possibility of adjusted turn and river cards. "Where there's smoke, there's fire" type of deal. I wish they would let us have a way to get hand history so we can disprove the allegations, but they wanted to add more micro transaction like rabbit hunting to the software instead.

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59222108#post59222108)

by Doorbread m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59219952#post59219952)

Decided to fire up a late night session. Played 4 hands before they quit. I'd be spooked too

Look at the hands in play lmfaoQ973 trip suited and A554 suited to the 5What a great fucken site haha. Games are good boys!... See full post

Free money at 5/10/20 🙂

by Doorbread m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59219952#post59219952)

Decided to fire up a late night session. Played 4 hands before they quit. I'd be spooked too... See full post

I wasn’t sold before on this whole RNG thing but these coolers for Xmas confirm it. It’s systematically in favor for the whales! /s

I really want to play and this site sure seems like the best option Its literally impossible for me to win. I've probably lost 25 of last 30 all ins as a 75+% favorite. Would be nice to actually look. The problem is these are multi way all ins for 200bb+ stacks. 800bb pots going to the 75/15 getting it in with 11% equity 20+ times in a row just seems questionable Not sure what to do. The brain says something is off but the heart says to play through the variance. Should be up like 150 buy ins in 30k hands probably

Here is an example that just happened. 93/63 3bet/called a 4bet with JJ72sss. We get in 150bb pre, bunch of dead money, guy flops 2 pair. Hes sitting with 1200bb I lose that spot 95% of the time the action plays out that way. Its not an exaggeration.

Sounds like a great game Would u rather have seen QJT9ds there? I never understand why players hate seeing other players play terribly at their table

Oh come on, no one disputes that you want to play in a game with whales like this, but not if you're failing to win against them. I'm sure some people in Chauncey Billups's games also thought the action was too good to pass up. On the topic of the RNG, I'm very hesitant to make my official position "the RNG is unfair" but I'm getting increasingly suspicious. I play mainly 100NL and am up about $3500 on the site in 80k hands so I'm not just some fish mad about losing. I'm definitely running far below EV in all ins; it's very difficult to track due to the lack of hand history but over the past few weeks I've probably lost ~80% of all ins where I'm "flipping" (45%+) or better. Obviously in itself this means nothing; I've run similarly bad in other games at times but it does sometimes feel like the whale is destined to win this session and no amount of equity will stop them. I can't find it now but I remember seeing an ad that said something along the lines of "no sharks" which seemed a bit concerning, because how could a site accomplish this...? I don't have a sample size on other sites to prove I'm a winner (before this year I played almost entirely live, winning at $40/hr in 1/3 and $60/hr at 2/5 over decent volume) but I've started playing on both ACR and CoinPoker and they somehow both feel significantly "easier" despite clearly having much tougher fields. I'll update my results at the end of this month if I still feel like making this point since I should have a more reasonable sample by then. I'm well aware that this is all "feelings" and there are various factors that could explain it (high rake, only running it once, higher variance due to every pot being multiway, antes), but at some point you have to ask how every table can have three whales and you can go days/weeks struggling to break even. I've played live games that play similarly and they were basically a line straight up. At this point I guess I'll just ascribe it to variance but I'm planning to play serious volume on both it and ACR/Coin this month; if I'm winning on those but losing here it might help to change my mind.

If you are a good player it’s borderline impossible to lose on this site so far There is some adjustment to it, and it plays more like LIVE plo, but that’s why winrates are so high There is no other site other than app games where you can and should have a 20bb/100 winrate or higher than this site right now. Volume cures variance

I'm currently murdering $.01/$.02 for over 50bb/100. I'm up over $800 across 80,000 hands. Still, I've been victim to what seems to be a disproportionate amount of insane suckouts in huge spots. When it happens, I look and see how many hands the villain has played. In almost every case it's less than 5,000. I compare that to my own experience. I never meant to get into this. I was just f-ing around with the $2 they gave me for signing up. I've never deposited, and I never will. My first day on the site I turned that $2 into $17. At the end of the second day I had $175 (though I did play some 5c/10c in addition to 1c/2c) I didn't record detailed results for my first 7K hands, so that money isn't included in my aforementioned win rate. But I made approx $200 playing 1c/2c and 5c/10c, so if I do include that, my win rate is probably over 60 I'm wondering if the RNG favors the noobs. Maybe they're sucking people in by making poker seem easy.

I couldn't win a hand on the site when I had just deposited so it can't be that the rng caters to new players.

I am the best player on the site and I took a psych class once so I feel qualified to lecture you rng truthers https://www.simplypsychology.org/locus-o... (https://www.simplypsychology.org/locus-of-control.html) Which one do you want to be, hero? https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/negati... (https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/negativity-bias) https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/availa... (https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/availability-heuristic) Your mental game is setting you back https://www.pokerlistings.com/news/godfr... (https://www.pokerlistings.com/news/godfromstock-wins-plo-cash-game-world-championship-coinpoker) You think cumicon is feeling sorry for himself saying it’s rigged? Or back on the grind? https://www.primedope.com/poker-variance... (https://www.primedope.com/poker-variance-calculator/) Your downswing is nothing special. Or your winrate is not what you think it is

I'm in the UK so I can't look at the T&C. Are those of you who are starting to think that the deal could be rigged thinking that simply because of your belief that an online poker site should provide a fully random deal created by a proper and effective RNG? I'm not sure that that has to be the case - unless it's stated in the T&C that the deal is created thus, and that the RNG's output is tested and verified by an independent and recognised expert company specialising in that field. There's an argument that a deal can be rigged, but that the game can be fair to its contingent of players: maybe everyone receives as many Aces as anyone else; maybe bad players are given more winning draws than the good players; etc. Of course, perhaps the above is in their T&C. Would someone please post the relevant sections, if so? Thank you.

by Mike Haven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59231732#post59231732)

Would someone please post the relevant sections, if so? Thank you.

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Thank you very much. After seeing that, I'd definitely be in the INOV camp. If I thought I'd been seeing too many bad beats recently, before starting my sessions I'd be chanting the relevant Japa Yoga to calm my mind: "It's nasty ol' variance. It's nasty ol' variance."

I have QQxx 3 spades, there's an open call, I call then another player 3 bets, and there are 2 calls. We are deep. Flop comes down Q T x. Board runs out 2 way all in, middle set vs a str8 flush draw. I would have won, or would I have? Is the order of cards determined upon the deal the deck is fixed, or is it random every card based on the timing of when it starts? If I had called that could throw off the timing? Note: are the rabbit cards they are using now based on the actual runout? Or it's just random run that could be different if you had called?

This is very interesting I’ve been playing and winning since the 2006 PokerStars games coordi mentioned. Haven’t noticed postflop stuff yet, only 15000 hands in though. I was dealt trips 4 times in a row which has never even come close to happening in my 3 million hands of online Omaha. So far that’s the only conclusive thing I can contribute to this thread. Trips dealt pre at a rate which is so far beyond an outlier it immediately set off my spidey sense. I’m gonna keep putting in a lot of volume and keep an eye on this thread and report back with my thoughts/findings. It’s always been the players who unearth the nastiness so consider me the canary in the coal mine

Glad there is a forum thread about this. I was thinking I'm the only insane one. I mostly play tournaments and I have seen an insane amount of unreasonable and irrational snap calls. We're talking about people snapping all in post flop jam with a 1 card gut shot and 1 other person behind him. And we're talking about relatively high buy-ins, around $50 - $215 buyins. I do have some evidence that could prove probability of rigged RNG. There is this one guy who disconnected from a tournament and only had 1 BB left, this guy won 10 times in a row every single time he was BB against solid hands, he would hit either 2 pair, or runner runner flush, or a 1 card straight, etc. And we're talking about him going against people who had A,K : AA, two overs, pocket pairs between JJ and 88. I think if you were to calculate the odds of this guy winning 10 times in a row as a big blind significantly behind it has to be 1 in million at least.

I started a session on Friday by running my KK into AA and losing a stack. I ended that session by stacking someone with KK when I had AA I started a session on Saturday by running my KK into AA and losing a stack. I ended that session by stacking someone with KK when I had AA This morning, I've been playing satellite tournaments and have seen other players run their AA into another player's KK twice.

another day of getting it in with 60+% ev multiway and 70+% ev heads up and losing 85% of the run outs 4bet aces get called by kk9x and ak9x and flop comes 997 hit the nut straight against 2pair and he rivers the fh after all in on turn I'm supposed to occasionally win these spots, right? Sounds like the game is too good to be true, right? And again... I'm 90% on this turn where we got it all in for 800bb pot

() Its literally relentless for 20k hands now

Why are you all in for 300bbs on the turn with bottom set? I’m not sure people understand where EV comes from or how variance works. When you guys play bad hands more often, you will flop something more often that gets you into a lot of trouble, that you normally shouldn’t have in the situation you are in. So if you play shit hands and flop let’s say top 2 with it and decide this is good enough for my stack, you introduce variance into your game that you are now at the mercy of. Stop playing shit hands and definitely stop playing them badly if you want to reduce variance. Playing plo well is already at a 200bb STDV Playing PLO badly puts that at 500 or higher

I called a small EP open with A4s. Flop is KQ4r, check/check. Turn 4. villain leads 10BB. I check his stats and and see he's only played about 450 hands. I sigh as I realize there is no way I can win this hand against the "beginner's luck" algorithm. But I raise to 40BB anyway, and villain calls. River K, villain jams.

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59234481#post59234481)

Why are you all in for 300bbs on the turn with bottom setI'm not sure people understand where EV comes from or how variance works.When you guys play bad hands more often, you will flop something more often that gets you into a lot of trouble, that you normally shouldn't have in the situation you are in. So if you play **** hands and flop let's say top 2 with it and decide this ... See full post

Brother, I got in bottom set on the turn for an 800bb pot with 90% equity and you are trying to say I did something wrong. You are just flat out wrong Lets start with me winning that spot 9 out of 10 times like I'm supposed to, instead of losing it 9 out of 10 times. Maybe you don't even realize I'm not the guy who stacked off 2 pair? I dunno, your post is dumb

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59235087#post59235087)

There are 0 situations you are suppose to stack off with bottom set on the turn for 800bbs in PLO with no redraws 0% When you conceptually understand why this is in theory, you will become a much better player who understands how to not only generate a higher win rate, but reduce variance while doing so. This is an absolute punt in every sense of the word. You are caught up on the fact you had 90% to win with 1 card to go You are missing the fact you should have never been in this spot in the first place from a theoretical standpoint. Take with that what you will.

Number of times I've made quads in two decades of playing live texas hold em - 1 Number of times I've made quads in my last 250 hands on ClubWPTGold - 3

Make that 4 times

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59235917#post59235917)

There are 0 situations you are suppose to stack off with bottom set on the turn for 800bbs in PLO with no redraws0%When you conceptually understand why this is in theory, you will become a much better player who understands how to not only generate a higher win rate, but reduce variance while doing so. This is an absolute punt in every sense of the word.You are caught up on the... See full post

What if your opponent turns their hand face up and shows they have nominal equity? Is it still "wrong" to stack off with bottom set? What if your opponent does not turn their hand up, but you have an infinite sample of hands he's played in exactly this spot - which show you have a commanding equity advantage in this exact spot? As someone who speaks with such absolute certainty, you should be aware that poker is a situational game, and no strategic "rules" in poker are absolute. Speaking as such just exposes a narrow mindedness and inability to think critically.

by Snipe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59236701#post59236701)

Speaking as such just exposes a narrow mindedness and inability to think critically.

This is a very tired and feckless debate bro trope. "I don't like your manners so you're probably dumb!" Try just saying why you think he's wrong

by PresidentDeuce m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59236023#post59236023)

Number of times I've made quads in two decades of playing live texas hold em - 1 Number of times I've made quads in my last 250 hands on ClubWPTGold - 3

I hit quads twice the last time I played live NL.

by Snipe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59236701#post59236701)

Then embrace the variance. Why be mad you made every right decision? Are you so intellectually talented you make such amazing deviations but so intellectually challenged to understand despite this, you will still lose 10% of the time? Talk about a conundrum

by PresidentDeuce m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59236741#post59236741)

This is a very tired and feckless debate bro trope. "I don't like your manners so you're probably dumb!" Try just saying why you think he's wrong

Alternatively, you could just try reading. by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59237028#post59237028)

Then embrace the variance. Why be mad you made every right decision Are you so intellectually talented you make such amazing deviations but so intellectually challenged to understand despite this, you will still lose 10% of the time Talk about a conundrum

From what you've shared thus far, I'm sure your life if full of conundrums.

ok who else has noticed that when the board has a pair, trips come at a rate that is insane? i might be off but i swear its happening way, way too often aside from that, im seeing what coordi was saying. im routinely getting in money good but losing to fish over and over some background, im a pro of 20 years and had a very consistent and high win rate on global PLO for years. this is easier than global but in 45000 hands im still unable to profit? so that's to say im not some whiney loser who goes around crying about an RNG ****ing him this really feels off these are the easiest games online and it's not even close. even on my worst game and running my worst, im almost never losing after 45000 hands in this pool coordi is saying the same thing... wtf

If I wasn't playing in games where it was clearly profitable to stack off bottom set then I wouldn't stack off bottom set. Its kind of a brain dead argument. I'm not complaining about losing set over set. I'm complaining about this T765r shoved flop

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At some point you start to think that you would have to win this all in like 300 times in a row to get your equity back and you have to think how long it would possible take to hit this position 300 times and then you lose another, and another, and its close to like 400 times in a row and people on the internet are telling you that you shouldn't stack off bottom set edit: just stacked off a spot 3 way where we are 50/45/5 as two regs and the fish hit quads

Had to fold this one when they potted oop

() They are 5% to hit to 3 All in on turn as 90% favorite

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by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59245931#post59245931)

Had to fold this one when they potted oop They are 5% to hit to 3All in on turn as 90% favorite ... See full post

**** just like this seems to happen too much to me and one of my friends who also plays plo on here sure you lose once in awhile but not all the time. i hope im wrong, the site is sick

3 hands in a row. Identical suits. 2.3 Billion to 1

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by PresidentDeuce m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59246269#post59246269)

3 hands in a row. Identical suits.2.3 Billion to 1 ... See full post

wild not surprising though in plo the if the board comes paired, it trips out at a rate that seems absolutely absurd to me. ive played 6 million hands of online poker, ive never seen so many trips run outs. its happening so much im game planning around my top pair being counterfeit and my pocket pairs going way up in value by the river anyone else seeing this?

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59245768#post59245768)

If I wasn't playing in games where it was clearly profitable to stack off bottom set then I wouldn't stack off bottom set. Its kind of a brain dead argument. I'm not complaining about losing set over set.I'm complaining about thisT765r shoved flop Spoiler Show

... See full post

... See full post

I thought you were complaining about WPT gold. Is it coinpoker too now? Or are all the sites conspiring against you and you specifically? Help me understand

I’m not sure people understand variance in this thread If they binked the WSOP Main for $10 mil after winning 6 flips in a row, earned. Lose a 95% in PLO? Rigged The human mind fascinates me sometimes.

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59248356#post59248356)

I'm not sure people understand variance in this thread If they binked the WSOP Main for $10 mil after winning 6 flips in a row, earned. Lose a 95% in PLO Rigged The human mind fascinates me sometimes.

Bud this is many winning regs seeing a long term pattern that something may be off about this site. It’s the same way that people started realizing how bad the collusion and cheating is on ignition. It may be nothing but stop your whole shaming just because people are voicing their concerns.

Collusion and cheating are not the same as variance People aren’t complaining they are getting cheated They are complaining they are losing runouts Or being dealt improbable hands This is the softest site on the internet right now. Winning regs should have 20bb/100 winrates at minimum and realistically higher at every stake minus maaaaaaaybe 5/10/20 after rake. And the rake is massive If you aren’t winning on this site, despite bad runouts (lol), it’s not the site that’s the problem.

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59248378#post59248378)

Collusion and cheating are not the same as variance People aren't complaining they are getting cheatedThey are complaining they are losing runoutsOr being dealt improbable handsThis is the softest site on the internet right now. Winning regs should have 20bb/100 winrates at minimum and realistically higher at every stake minus maaaaaaaybe 5/10/20 after rake. And the rake is mas... See full post

I am not complaining about losing, I’m massively + on the site. I am pro of twenty years, have played 6 million hands online I have a deep understanding of variance The rng does not feel right to me, nor my student who is also a crusher and many other winning players Is something definitely off? Can’t say. Do I feel strongly that something is off while like you, sharing a healthy skepticism and aversion to “rigtard” comments on 2+2? Yes I will continue playing and observing and reporting my findings

by Liquidator m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59247919#post59247919)

I thought you were complaining about WPT gold. Is it coinpoker too now? Or are all the sites conspiring against you and you specifically? Help me understand

Its the background to the cardplayer omaha odds calculator by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59248356#post59248356)

I'm not sure people understand variance in this thread If they binked the WSOP Main for $10 mil after winning 6 flips in a row, earned. Lose a 95% in PLO Rigged The human mind fascinates me sometimes.

It is a bit fascinating that you posted this like its what I'm doing or even relevant to the discussion. Fascinating indeed Anyways, I withdrew off the site. Best of luck to anyone not running hundreds of buy ins under EV in tens of thousands of hands

UTG raises 4x 3 calls Hero raises to 16x BB and UTG call Flop J65 r no clubs BB checks, UTG bets 38x, Hero jams for 83x UTG snap calls with 98 clubs and hits his gutshot. He had less than 120 hands on the site ever. I swear it's like everyone with less than 5k hands is in god-mode

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I get the frustration. Variance in poker can feel unreal sometimes, especially when big pots keep going the wrong way over and over. Even when you know the math, it still messes with your head after a while. By the way, I recently saw the Big Adventures tournament is wrapping up and they’re doing the final prize draw live. The winner gets a Maldives trip and it’s randomly picked from the Top 100 players. If anyone wants to watch the draw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpPQB0MSyZM YouTube BIG ADVENTURES GRAND PRIZE DRAW | OFFICIAL LIVE STREAM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpPQB0MSyZM)

Dont know if anyone has mentioned this, but the distribution seems to be tied to VPIP. The play is so bad a natural agustment is to tighten up, but the "Fair Play" AI program they have punishes you for it.

RNG discussions come up on every site eventually. The reality is that regulated sites use certified RNG systems that get audited by third parties. The variance in poker is just brutal and human brains are wired to see patterns that arent there. If you track 10,000 hands you will find stretches that look impossible but are actually within normal statistical variance.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59276333#post59276333)

I have made over 1 million dollars playing online poker. I was the winningest sit-and-go player on the internet for the year 2010 before Black Friday. I have played unknown millions of poker hands. Ok, so to the point of this message. I have played almost 30k hands of PLO on ClubWPT at mostly the $.25–$.50 and $.25–$.50–$1 stakes

It must suck to go from being the "winningest" SNG player to 0,25/0,50PLO Is that also because of the RNG?

by RakedOverTheCoals m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59276469#post59276469)

Questioning the RNG is not where my problem is. The problem is the reasoning or lack there of behind questioning the RNG. People say stuff like, "this doesn't feel right" or say something about running bad. I don't think I've seen one long term winning player who plays on WPT Gold complain about the RNG in this thread.Generally speaking, I think it's difficult for people to... See full post

Then you simply haven't read the thread. Most here who are ''complaining'' about the rng feeling off are doing so while being up heaps. I personally am and still feel something has been off since day 1. This idea that you just understand variance better than the rest of us is a fantasy.

I cannot play WPT gold because of where I live and I can also not access their site But im interested, Does club WPT Gold have an RNG certification on their website?

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59276741#post59276741)

It must suck to go from being the "winningest" SNG player to 0,25/0,50PLO Is that also because of the RNG?

"Obviously, my poker winnings from the past are gone (non-poker reasons)." This was my next sentence after what you quoted here. But yes it does suck. It must also suck to have nothing better to do in life but read and comment on a poker forum about a site you cannot even play on. While lacking the self awareness to realize that perhaps your actions are more pathetic then someone playing .50-1.00 on ClubWPT Gold.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59277161#post59277161)

"Obviously, my poker winnings from the past are gone (non-poker reasons)."This was my next sentence after what you quoted here. But yes it does suck. It must also suck to have nothing better to do in life but read and comment on a poker forum about a site you cannot even play on. While lacking the self awareness to realize that perhaps your actions are more pathetic then som... See full post

If the losses are non-poker related you could still fall back on being the "winningest" sng player But I take an interest in the RNG of a poker site because im interested in online poker so maybe you could answer my previous question

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59276894#post59276894)

I cannot play WPT gold because of where I live and I can also not access their site But im interested, Does club WPT Gold have an RNG certification on their website?

Because if they dont that would be a huge red flag to me

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59248378#post59248378)

Collusion and cheating are not the same as variance People aren't complaining they are getting cheatedThey are complaining they are losing runoutsOr being dealt improbable handsThis is the softest site on the internet right now. Winning regs should have 20bb/100 winrates at minimum and realistically higher at every stake minus maaaaaaaybe 5/10/20 after rake. And the rake is mas... See full post

I've played with you a few time and am legitimately surprised you can read.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59276755#post59276755)

Then you simply haven't read the thread. Most here who are ''complaining'' about the rng feeling off are doing so while being up heaps. I personally am and still feel something has been off since day 1. This idea that you just understand variance better than the rest of us is a fantasy.

Fair point, I haven't read all 70+ pages of the WPT thread where this was originally posted and I was unaware of winning players also being concerned. I am willing to be persuaded, however feelings are not proof. With such a big claim that the RNG is off or rigged there needs to be data, evidence, and substance to back this claim up. Yes it is possible there is something off about the RNG but highly improbable. If anything comes up other than a feeling, I am all ears. Until then, I'm done with the RNG discussion thread because there is nothing further to discuss.

by RakedOverTheCoals m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59279004#post59279004)

Until then, I'm done with the RNG discussion thread because there is nothing further to discuss.

Great news! Nobody was interested in your 15 posts of the same old "if there's smoke, there MAY be fire but I'm not willing to consider the possibility until I've been burned and that burn has been certified by 3 different, registered, independent burn specialists" BS. The completely clueless tone of random bots who think people are here to convince them is so tired.

Just witnessed a new record god mode run. A player named SaCuL bought in for $10 at a .10 .20 .40 PLO table. He started at 5:36am and played continuously at the same table until 2:55pm (9 hours 19 minutes). During this time he played a total of 487 hands. He reached a peak of $1,186 on this single $10 buy-in (186.6x) He finally left the table with close to $540. This player had a vpip of 82 and was playing very bad and very wild. Discounting shorthanded play he won 129 out of the 442 hands I counted. Close to 31% when the 8 handed table was at or nearly full. It is hard to quantify just how improbable a run like this is. But just some more things to consider. The max buy-in at this table is $40. Most buy-in for less. He played the very first hand at the table HU. So there were no established big stacks that he could profit off of. This is low stakes PLO. There is no running over the table. A very high percentage of these hands went to showdown. I wish I had that percentage. So winning 31% of total hands at an 8 handed table over this sample is insane. And he did it on a single 25bb buy-in. I described an eerily similar run in my previous post that happened just a couple days prior. This player actually won I think 38% of total hands over a similar sample. I actually have cellphone pictures saved of most of the hands for that one. If this type of thing was happening once in a great while you maybe could rationalize it as just a freak occurrence. But these types of runs are happening all the time on ClubWPT Gold. At least at the PLO .20 .40 - .50 1 stake range that I have been playing at. And they are only happening to the high vpip players. I have yet to see any decent player having some insane god mode run anything like this. I understand playing like a maniac gives someone a better chance to have a crazy run like this compared to a nit like myself. But it is still happening at a rate that is beyond any standard deviation that is realistic. At this point I can say with near certainty there is something nefarious going on with ClubWPT Gold. At least in the games I have played in and observed. When you have extremely low probability events (maybe close to impossible in some cases) happening over and over again for only a certain subset of player types then something is wrong. While I have started to compile some data and evidence I wish I had more. But please understand it is very difficult on a site that does not give hand histories. I am not a rigtard, I am not liar, I am not delusional, I am not a sore loser (actually slightly up in these games) and I have no incentive to want something to be wrong here. I am just reporting what I am seeing on daily basis. And I don't even claim to know exactly what is going on. It could be the site handicapping certain player types they know rate to lose at an extremely high rate. It could be bots or players planted by the site itself to generate games and action. I really don't know. But I know something is wrong.

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They cranked up the aim assist tonight for sure. Seems like it's been since the last update.

Just wanted to chime in also. I have played on Gold and other sites and logged millions of hands and hundreds of thousands live also. I played with the above player mentioned the other night that ran up to $1500 at 40 PLO. This is a daily occurrence. And it isn't within a standard deviation. There are a lot of fishy things going on, on this site. And before anyone says I'm a fish, I'm still crushing the site. But I definitely understand every other day or at least 1 of my tables per sesh there will be a 80 vpip whale who runs up a monster stack that I can't win a single hand against. Just standard on Gold.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59280240#post59280240)

Just wanted to chime in also. I have played on Gold and other sites and logged millions of hands and hundreds of thousands live also. I played with the above player mentioned the other night that ran up to $1500 at 40 PLO. This is a daily occurrence. And it isn't within a standard deviation. There are a lot of fishy things going on, on this site. And before anyone says I'm a fi... See full post

Thanks for confirming I still have some sanity left. It really is absurd. I think I finally got myself to stop playing in these games. I kept wanting to believe these were legit poker games but they just aren't. The denial part for me was thinking/hoping it wasn't rigged. Even if I can still come out ahead I value my sanity more. A couple other names that are very suspicious. OPPmoney. Teasr79 (going to post on his run later), oopsimdiddyagain and several more. But really most any 80 +VPIP player runs like god. Even if they inevitably lose. Another suspicious part about some of the extreme god mode runs is how long these players play continuously at the same table. We have to assume someone who is an 80 to 90+ vpip player is a recreational player. Even for a professional grinder, playing over 9 hours at the same table continuously without a second break seems a bit absurd. And the decision times for these players tend to be lighting quick throughout the session. This makes me lean a bit towards the possibility these aren't just regular people who are getting gifted god mode runs by the site. But some kind of inside job plants. But I still don't know for sure about what is at work.

by Snipe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59279294#post59279294)

Great news! Nobody was interested in your 15 posts of the same old "if there's smoke, there MAY be fire but I'm not willing to consider the possibility until I've been burned and that burn has been certified by 3 different, registered, independent burn specialists" BS. The completely clueless tone of random bots who think people are here to convince them is so tired.

Just because you're not interested in what I have to say doesn't mean nobody is interested. You've taken my points out of context, resort to insults and petty jabs when you're ideas are proven to be weak and baseless. The worse part is you formulate your claims around feelings and a hunch, not logic, reasoning and proof. Your methodology of supporting your ideas really shows how ignorant and weak your arguments really are.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59280731#post59280731)

Thanks for confirming I still have some sanity left. It really is absurd. I think I finally got myself to stop playing in these games. I kept wanting to believe these were legit poker games but they just aren't. The denial part for me was thinking/hoping it wasn't rigged. Even if I can still come out ahead I value my sanity more. A couple other names that are very suspicio... See full post

+1 on oppmoney! I can never beat this dude in a hand and he plays like an aggro maniac and always gets there.

by RakedOverTheCoals m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59280940#post59280940)

Just because you're not interested in what I have to say doesn't mean nobody is interested. You've taken my points out of context, resort to insults and petty jabs when you're ideas are proven to be weak and baseless. The worse part is you formulate your claims around feelings and a hunch, not logic, reasoning and proof. Your methodology of supporting your ideas really shows... See full post

The insults are not petty. They're extremely well crafted. As far as "worse part", well, that's up for debate.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59281151#post59281151)

+1 on oppmoney! I can never beat this dude in a hand and he plays like an aggro maniac and always gets there.

Does this look like him? Unfortunately I don't think I have any other records of this run up he had to almost $1200 at .20 .40. I thought I had recorded the details. But I remember it was just like the other two runs I described. I think he bought in for $20 and ran to it up to this stack in the picture. He played continuously at this same table for some insane long time just like the other two players. I actually played a lot of hands with him at this table and he was just unbeatable. Then here are two other pictures that show him buying in for $10 and running it up to $200 in 47 hands. Is the $1500 run up you mentioned in the other post a different occurrence to the one I was describing that you witnessed on your own?

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That was the same run, both guys you posted. I wasn't at the tables you posted at those times but I was at some point. I played a short sesh 2.5 hours last night late and tried to table select and avoid the 80-95pfr/40+ pfr guys and just "bumhunt" (as if, almost everyone sucks anyways) the 40-70/10-20 guys. And guess what? It felt like a normal sesh and I won 7.5 buyins. Shocking!

I think after some research and hearing other's testimonials it's more likely there are super users and or cheating accounts made by the site than there are just whales running above EV. It would explain the 9+ hour continuous sesh from recs, I mean seriously dude I've played poker for 15 years and NO REC plays 10 hours without a break, this is just BS. We should keep posting more potentially suspicious accounts. But yeah, try avoiding the aggro whale tables and target the lower PFRs and see if that helps.

The superuser on GG also had very fishy stats and from what I read its quite likely wpt golds security is more vulnerable than GG's The GG superuser Moneytaker wasnt running a lot above EV or anything but could see his % in a pot so he called down super weird spots with the best hand, he didnt shove crazy hands to see favorable runouts time and time again.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59281553#post59281553)

That was the same run, both guys you posted. I wasn't at the tables you posted at those times but I was at some point. I played a short sesh 2.5 hours last night late and tried to table select and avoid the 80-95pfr/40+ pfr guys and just "bumhunt" (as if, almost everyone sucks anyways) the 40-70/10-20 guys. And guess what? It felt like a normal sesh and I won 7.5 buyins. Shocki... See full post

I pretty much have only targeted the mega high vpip whales because that is what common sense would dictate you should do in order to make the most money. And I played pretty obsessively over the past 3 months chasing the illusion of free money. But like you said the opposite of common sense is the prevailing theme here. The higher your opponents vpip the harder it is to win against them. It is hard to do what you are suggesting and play against normal players instead where things may be more more fair. Once you know the site is compromised it effects you mentally. And I don't want to continue giving business to a corrupt company even if I can still profit myself. It is surprising this isn't getting more attention. While there is more to come, I think I have given some pretty solid evidence that something is wrong here. And there has to be many people who have the same experiences and observations that we have. I don't think many read these threads so I may have to look into contacting some people of relevance in the poker world to share some of this. I think this is the most active online poker site in the USA, to have actual evidence it is corrupted is a pretty big deal in the poker world.

I haven't played enough on Coin either yet to make a conclusion that it is better or worse than Gold but I will say so far I have felt like the best player at most tables and am barely winning on the site. The rake, despite promos and rakeback is high and the VPIPs are low. I'm seeing so much bad play from even regs on bomb pots too (Jesus everyone sucks at these!) and am getting it in so good and running ice cold to start on here. The traffic is low too, I like to play late nights and have trouble getting 6 tables unless I mix stakes or games. Regarding what you said, I totally understand. But last night was the most "normal" session I have had on Gold. I still lost standard bad beats but didn't just lose every single hand to some 90/45 player like I shouldn't. There is 100% something crooked with Gold. Will anyone do anything about it? Highly unlikely, sadly. Doug Polk and these other names just shill it and make tons off it. They're not going to just come and throw it under a bus, even if there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence to suggest something nefarious is going on.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59281774#post59281774)

I haven't played enough on Coin either yet to make a conclusion that it is better or worse than Gold but I will say so far I have felt like the best player at most tables and am barely winning on the site. The rake, despite promos and rakeback is high and the VPIPs are low. I'm seeing so much bad play from even regs on bomb pots too (Jesus everyone sucks at these!) and am getti... See full post

Come on man. If something were corrupt with Gold, you'd be able to tell because they'd do something like make sure their sponsored players final tabled their largest events. Until that happens, clearly there's nothing to discuss. Waaaaiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttttt........... Really though, another player fit the profile a few months back named "Shady8dy". He always sat with thousands of BBs, and played extremely erratically. Somehow he always seemed to get there. I saw him pretty regularly for a few weeks - always with massive stacks. I moved up as I was just learning PLO at the time, so maybe he still plays - but I haven't seen him for a while.

i've been able to move up in stakes on Gold - originally playing 25/50/1, then 50/1/2, and now 1/2/4. i'm up a good amount in 6 months. since they don't have hand histories and we don't have really accurate stats, it's very tough to determine if things are legit. but i can say these things are true:

• i am a steady winning player, typically 4-tabling
• the VPIP and PFR #s almost always allow to spot the super-aggros and super-conservatives
• when you go on a win streak, your good hands hold up at the expected rates. if i win 3 or 4 buy-ins in a session, there will still be some bad beats, but the number of holds outnumbers them.
• when you go on a losing streak, you are going to lose everything. top top gets burned constantly, every called 3 bet misses the flop, every draw bricks, and every flopped set will find an incredible way to lose. this can go on for tens of thousands of hands, which seems absurd when you're in the middle of it
• when you go on a losing streak, most of the losses "seem" to come at the hands of players with 5,000 or fewer hands played. most of the losses "seem" to happen to players that have well over 40% VPIP, but sometimes around 50-60-80%. it crushes your soul when you raise 78s in LP, call a 3bet from the blind, and get an AQT none of your suit flop like clockwork. it happens over and over and over. then you massively 4bet aces or kings, and someone playing 79s for 30bbs pre hits a 257 board, immediately gets it all in, and turns a 9. "of course he gets that" is the only thing that can be said if "seems" like the losing players should go broke much faster than they actually do. but, without statistical proof, it's nearly impossible to determine if anything shady ever happens. it also wouldn't surprise me if the business was doing shady things, since they sneak in every single way to nickel and dime players (timebank extensions, hand reveal) even via accidental clicks.

I meant to post earlier today but since my last post in the last week most sessions have felt normal until last night. Late night there were hardly any PLO tables running when I signed on. Then magically, which never happens late night there were new tables popping up with new players. Of course, the new players were in God mode with their 80% vpips as is the Gold norm. I also recognized OPPoker sign on and immediately left his table. Weirdly enough, he ended up leaving when I looked again. The other regs weren't winning either. I cut the session short after minimal damage. It's important on here to recognize a session you have no chance of winning in. Holdem, PLO, whatever. You will see the patterns and cheating that show it's going to be a huge losing session right away. You're a fool if you think something nefarious isn't happening on the site. Just too many indicators. I believe last night the site was manufacturing new accounts to create more tables and rake and putting them in God mode. Don't fall for that. Just quit your session if you see that.

Insane amount of skill issue in this thread. Maybe if you guys with literal 1000s of posts on 2p2 over a decade+ committed to improvement and accountability things would have ended up different.

by tgiggity m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59197390#post59197390)

I have been playing 200-2knl for ~9 years and millions of hands. played on basically every site that has existed over that span, small and large, usa and international. never have I felt the way I feel about clubwpt about any other site (except when the collusion on bodog became apparent, but as you mentioned, that was different) obviously some people are still winning and that... See full post

Chiming in late. I had a similar feeling. I stopped playing on club wptg after 50k hands or so (with a decent profit). Something felt off. Have played 10M+ hands of micro-low hs over the years

by MehAllIn m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59289097#post59289097)

Insane amount of skill issue in this thread. Maybe if you guys with literal 1000s of posts on 2p2 over a decade+ committed to improvement and accountability things would have ended up different.

You must be one of those 90 vpip PLO crushers on the site. How much do you charge for coaching?

by MehAllIn m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59289097#post59289097)

Insane amount of skill issue in this thread. Maybe if you guys with literal 1000s of posts on 2p2 over a decade+ committed to improvement and accountability things would have ended up different.

there are people saying the same thing who have thousands of posts, hundreds of posts, and tens of posts. it is amusing to hear the immediate dismissal based largely on the "why would anything be suspect???" have you met ANY company, EVER? lol

New player tonight (still playing) running up $800 at 40 PLO. 86/33 stats, 800 hands. I just can't take this anymore. It's just way too common. This is just every day

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59290011#post59290011)

New player tonight (still playing) running up $800 at 40 PLO. 86/33 stats, 800 hands. I just can't take this anymore. It's just way too common. This is just every day

whats your theory here? cheating? colluding? the rng is rigged for this guy specifically?

How do these player run up their stacks typically? Since its so common By that I mean do they have favorable runouts each time or do they make the most bizarre hero calls etc? Because the first would signal to a possible rng fault but the second would signal more towards superusing. And it doesnt seem like their security is so air tight superusing is out of the question. Maybe more likely than rng being tailored for certain players only.

My experience was the runouts. It seemed like weak players were over-realizing equity in every spot. Obviously, sample size matters etc etc but it felt bizarre

I think the site is creating new accounts and they are over realizing their equities. If anyone questions the sample sizes, there are some examples in previous pages. A guy playing 89/44 won 1/3 the hands in a 9 hour continuous session. I'm sorry, but as someone playing for profit for 10+ years I've never seen a rec not take a break in 9 hours. And he snap makes every decision. So, I think it's a combination of RNG faults and superusing.

Most of these issues would not be issues if the player pool was just better. The amount of people who put too much money with weak holdings into multi-way pots and/or bet way too big in them is why you are seeing such massive variance. These aren’t signs of bad RNG, it’s actually signs of a great game. The only thing you should be saying after some 90/10 idiot wins a 600bb 3b pot with J963 suited to the 6 is……..what a fucken great game I’m in and reload instantly. Everything this thread is complaining about are actually signs of great games being constantly available. This is a gold mine.

by MehAllIn m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59291783#post59291783)

These are your opponents, guys. LOL

Love it. Thread full of fish, best site in the world by far. Pokerboom 2.0

I cant play there because im not from america but its must be one of hell of a soft site Everyone is getting screwed over but still are beating the game hard Than you know you have a fishy game :p

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59291327#post59291327)

Most of these issues would not be issues if the player pool was just better. The amount of people who put too much money with weak holdings into multi-way pots and/or bet way too big in them is why you are seeing such massive variance. These aren't signs of bad RNG, it's actually signs of a great game. The only thing you should be saying after some 90/10 idiot wins a 600bb 3b p... See full post

Yeah I disagree with this. The worse the competition is the lower the variance should be for winning players. I am not sure how so many people think the opposite is true. Sure you will see more dramatic individual hands where some crazy bad beat occurs. But you should have far more overall variance playing against solid players who are actually trying to find plus ev spots and get their money in good then you should against people who play reckless and don't care.

on a huge downswing covering the last 5 sessions, about 25 hours of play, 4 tabling. literally losing every spot; missing every flop when calling w/ playable hands in position, and getting 0 action when flopping the nuts, players with 22/10 stats 3betting KJo OOP and just smashing gutshots to stack flopped top 2. all the usual stuff! at the end of my session last night, im down a ton overall, but have 350 bbs at one table. there are 2 other players there with about the same stacks. one aggro but decent, one aggro spazbot. and we already know a clash is going to happen. EP shortstack opens min to 8 UTG, +1 is the decent player larger stack and 3bets to 34. i call with deuces on the CO, short stack opener calls. POT 116 FLOP 10 6 2 with two hearts action checks to me, i bet 34. short stack folds, +1... chk raises to 98. now we are pretty deep, but, obviously a call. POT 312 TURN J of hearts +1 checks. i check it back, RIVER is another 10 he thinks for a bit, and bets $300. i debate on just a call, but with a boat in position here, possibly up against AA/KK/QQ or something like AT/KT, i ultimately decide to (stupidly?) go for value. i jam it in for 1100 total effective. he thinks for a long while, uses some time banks, im like, NICE..... then he calls. i thought he might have JJ, or AT, but could also possibly have the big pairs that wouldn't have an easy decision. but he show downs 66, a hand i wouldn't have expected. but after seeing it, and closing up the tables for the night, i thought to myself, that's just par for the course. i don't even get mad about the legit coolers because this was just a fun hand, for the other guy. i could have just called. it was my 3rd time being set over set in the session for stacks, so going for some win back at the end was more important than being conservative, the stuff compounds when you both get outdrawn and miss flops an incredible percent of time over the course of 10k hands. robot gpt helped me out here statistically with this stretch:

• 2.6 standard deviations below expectation
• roughly 0.4% chance of happening
• happens about 1 in 250 stretches so yeah it can happen, reasonably about once a year at this rate. if it happens every other month, then yes it's a bit suspect, and yes we deserve to have hand histories and some better stats to prove that the games are legit as promoted.

Myself and others who are destroying the site are still wary about its legitimacy and security. If you’re not concerned at all, then good for you. The people who don’t keep their head on a swivel don’t tend to last long in poker so good luck.

i doubt 99% of the recs are in here. i wouldnt say i crush personally, but i do make an annual poker profit that is a tad bit more than many oeople's salary, so it's a good side gig, it's just super sketch. we need hand histories. where are you codedoug??

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59294020#post59294020)

i doubt 99% of the recs are in here. i wouldnt say i crush personally, but i do make an annual poker profit that is a tad bit more than many oeople's salary, so it's a good side gig, it's just super sketch. we need hand histories. where are you codedoug??

Poker as a side gig is great. I doubt hand histories or anything that makes the site better for regs will be coming. Someone asked Doug if there were any plans to implement in game notes and he said absolutely not.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59293885#post59293885)

on a huge downswing covering the last 5 sessions, about 25 hours of play, 4 tabling. literally losing every spot; missing every flop when calling w/ playable hands in position, and getting 0 action when flopping the nuts, players with 22/10 stats 3betting KJo OOP and just smashing gutshots to stack flopped top 2. all the usual stuff!at the end of my session last night, im down ... See full post

Did you ever just stop to think “Maybe I shouldn’t be cold calling EP opens and MP 3bets to those opens” This is what I’m talking about. When you play vs people who aren’t sound, variance goes way up. People think it’s the other way as evident by the other poster here who says you should get more variance playing regs who are trying (lol) Couldn’t be further from the truth. Playing vs absolute spewtards your winrate will skyrocket but your standard deviation will increase massively. PLO is already 150-200bb/100 STD, in these games with straddles and looser players it’s more like 400-600bb/100 Plug that into a variance calc over 1000 hands and show me what kind of variance you can expect in the short term

Softest side ever post Black Friday yet they mad to lose to a guy shoving with 20% equity. Like you can't have it both ways. Either fish have a chance or poker is chess and nobody has a pipe dream to win millions. Take the variance and print. Can't we just be happy a USA facing site takes credit cards again

That's never enough for these people. They expect to do little to no genuine, consistent, hard work on their game and be handed millions just for sitting in a chair and knowing the rules. I took on a student that was brand new to the game at the start of 2025 (brand new to POKER, not just PLO) and he is now beating 1/2 online on here, global, ignition, and acr healthily. He actually studies near daily with me, shuts up, shows up, plays the best games available on any given day, and focuses. Be fucking honest with yourselves. You are not putting in even close to a quarter of the effort you could and should be to earn the $ you think you're entitled to. No. Watching a JNandez "Play and Explain" in the background once a month is not studying. PLO has been and is still insanely soft because of all these lazy, weak, pussy mental regs. You should be concerned that people will step up and actually do the basics consistently and run laps around you.

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59294329#post59294329)

"This is what I'm talking about. When you play vs people who aren't sound, variance goes way up. People think it's the other way as evident by the other poster here who says you should get more variance playing regs who are trying (lol)Couldn't be further from the truth. Playing vs absolute spewtards your winrate will skyrocket but your standard deviation will increase massivel... See full post

So you think if you are playing at a table with 7 Guy Lalibertes you would have more variance then playing at a table with 7 Phil Galfonds? That is interesting.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295173#post59295173)

Run the math yourself. 6bb/100 winner vs regs with a standard 150bb/100 deviation Vs 20bb/100 winner vs whales with a 600bb/100 deviation Show me which graph is crazier for variance over 1000 hands

Why are we fixating on 1000 hand samples in the first place? No one doubts "short term variance higher in crazy games" You'd think people being around the game for this long would understand talking about 1000 hands is lol.

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295301#post59295301)

Run the math yourself. 6bb/100 winner vs regs with a standard 150bb/100 deviation Vs 20bb/100 winner vs whales with a 600bb/100 deviation Show me which graph is crazier for variance over 1000 hands

But those standard deviation numbers are just made up by you. If I were to plot a graph of an average 20bb/100 winner and compare it to that of an average 6bb/100 winner I will see far less variance in the graph of the 20bb/100 winner. Of course the graphs will look smoother for both the more hands that are calculated.

Still amazed how many people in poker dont know what variance is. Variance in poker is the statistical difference between expected long-term results and actual results. Versus huge fish the swings are crazier than versus great regulars. Of course the expected profit is way higher versus the fish but thats not what variance entails. Variance is how much it differs from the expected profit, not if that profit is high, low or even negative. Over, lets say 300k hands, the chance of running 20 buyins over/under expected profit is higher versus crazy fish than versus solid regs. Therefore variance against all fish is higher. When a game gets more "volatile" variance increases. So when switching from NLHE to PLO, switching from full ring to 6max or from 6max to HU, playing 250bb deep instead of 100bb deep. All increase variance while they dont rely on winrate or the quality of the opponent.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295699#post59295699)

Still amazed how many people in poker dont know what variance is.Variance in poker is the statistical difference between expected long-term results and actual results.Versus huge fish the swings are crazier than versus great regulars.Of course the expected profit is way higher versus the fish but thats not what variance entails. Variance is how much it differs from the expected... See full post

Here in Austin the PLO games are 1/2 with a $5 bring-in, unlimited straddles from UTG to the Button (can get up to $320, I've seen it) and match the stack. As soon as people see a big pot brewing, they can't help themselves, they HAVE to get their stack in with any four napkins because they have FOMO. Now you're in a 6-way all-in preflop and the variance is through the ***** ROOF!

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295699#post59295699)

Still amazed how many people in poker dont know what variance is.Variance in poker is the statistical difference between expected long-term results and actual results.Versus huge fish the swings are crazier than versus great regulars.Of course the expected profit is way higher versus the fish but thats not what variance entails. Variance is how much it differs from the expected... See full post

Let me ask you this: Say I have two biased coins. One with a 65-35 edge and the other with a 55-45 edge. Lets say we flip each of these 300k times each. Which do you think will produce the higher variance? And would you say this scenario is different then playing in 2 different poker games, one where you get your money in on average as a 65-35 favorite vs one where you get your money in on average as a 55-45 favorite?

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295853#post59295853)

That’s expected value, not variance. Variance is flipping the coin 10 times in a row and getting tails all 10 times

by Echemondo m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295870#post59295870)

That's expected value, not variance. Variance is flipping the coin 10 times in a row and getting tails all 10 times

I think there are different ways to think about variance that can confuse these discussions. I understand that variance probably has a technical definition in terms of how likely you are to have swings that are standard deviations above or below your expected value. Which is what Slugant it getting at. In the coin flip example I gave you rate to have far less 20 flip downswings ( or upswings) over the 300k sample with a 65-35 edge vs the 55-45 edge. I don't think either of you would argue with that. I think you can correlate that with poker buy-ins as well. The main thing that is different about poker is the fluctuation in pot sizes. Against aggressive fish you are putting yourself more at risk of running bad in the bigger pots which will come up more frequently then if you are playing against a bunch of tight regs. So over smaller samples if your 65-35s lose (or win) more then they should in the 200bb+ pots that will greatly deviate your actual results from your EV. For example over the course of 1000 hands you might play 60 big pots against the fish where as you would only play 20 big pots against solid regulars. So I acknowledge that part. But when most people talk about or think about variance in poker they think about how likely it is to have big downswings. I am arguing that not only will you win more overall against fish, you are far less likely to have big downswings against even wild aggressive fish then you will against good players. Another thing to add is that there is far more nuance to this then most recognize. For instance not all fish are the same. Passive calling station fish should create less variance for the winning players regardless of how you define variance. The same with fish that fold too much. It also matters greatly how the winning players approach playing against the fish. Even different players with the same overall long term win rate playing in identical games can have vastly different variance expectations. And there are ways to exploit fish that some are far better at then others. Point being that it is far more complicated then simple mathematical formulas.

Again, variance is how much an actual result varies from the expected result It doesnt matter if that expected result is +100k or -50k or whatever. A game is more variance heavy when actual results are more distant from the expected. What you explain in your coin flipping example is not variance, its expected value/result. The 65/35 coin gives you a bigger edge, but the standard deviation is exactly the same so it does not affect variance at all. When you say "most people talk about or think about variance in poker they think about how likely it is to have big downswings" its because they misunderstand variance the same way you do. Nobody is questioning you get less downswings versus fish, but again this is because your edge and expected value is a lot higher. You are more likely to be 20 buyins under EV for instance, but because you have such an edge you are less likely to actually be down over that sample than if you were playing all-reg line-ups. But for sure you are not the only one who gets these two things tangled up, thats why I said:

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295699#post59295699)

Still amazed how many people in poker dont know what variance is.

If you want to learn more about variance and how heavy it affects different types of poker primedope has an excellent variance calculator which could give many people a better insight 😉 Example:

() ( picture is more reggy, so less std.dev, and your wr is 2.5, bit more fishy your WR doubles but st.dev also increases. The probability of loss is almost half when playing with the fish. But the deviation from the expected winrate is also considerably higher. With the WR of 2.5bb/100 in a 70% confidence interval its 3.16 on either side, with the more volatile games but double the WR of 5bb/100 its 4.43 You can see in the 95% confidence interval its -/+ 6.32bb/100 versus -/+ 8.85 bb/100 That last part is exactly what variance is, not the probability of losing. PS: you can also see how easy it is to lose over 100k hands even though you are actually a winning player 😉

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59296008#post59296008)

Again, variance is how much an actual result varies from the expected resultIt doesnt matter if that expected result is +100k or -50k or whatever.A game is more variance heavy when actual results are more distant from the expected.What you explain in your coin flipping example is not variance, its expected value/result.The 65/35 coin gives you a bigger edge, but the standard de... See full post

Exactly. This is even more pronounced with higher win rates but higher standard deviations. Regs don’t punt 200bb into the middle with bottom pair and a 9hi flush draw vs your top set, so variance is reduced but winrates are lowered. Whales do so variance is increased but winrates are higher. Over the long run you win more vs the whales and realize a higher winrate, but in the short term you can absolutely be blasted by variance and lose massive piles vs very weak holdings that you would theoretically never have the chance to vs winning regulars. Here we have a 6bb/100 winrate with a 150bb/100 STD which is widely considered normal for PLO

( we have a 20bb/100 winrate but a 500bb/100 STD which is what my tracker shows is the standard deviation for my live 8max PLO games over the last 3 years of tracking.

( how deep the downswing can be over 1000 hands despite having a 3-4x winrate vs absolute whales. Over the long run I will absolutely print piles vs the whales, but in the short term I can experience swings that are way more severe than playing regulars. This is the same on WPT. Massive winrates, much higher short term variance. But the human brain can’t comprehend this without seeing the math. You all just think you are being cheated lol. It’s actually the opposite. You are sitting in one of the best game environments of the last 20 years and have the ability to print piles if you can just stomach the short term variance.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59296008#post59296008)

What you explain in your coin flipping example is not variance, its expected value/result. The 65/35 coin gives you a bigger edge, but the standard deviation is exactly the same so it does not affect variance at all.

This discussion is getting a bit to nerdy for me so I called on Chat GBT. I will look at what you posted a bit more when I get a chance and give a human response. But this is what Chat GBT and Gemini both basically said about your this specific part of your response: That response is incorrect—they’re mixing up concepts. �� The core mistake they’re making They’re claiming: “Standard deviation is exactly the same regardless of edge” That is false for a ±1 outcome coin model (which is exactly what your example is). �� What’s actually true (simple math) If each flip is: win = +1 lose = –1 Then: Mean (EV): μ=2p−1\mu = 2p - 1μ=2p−1 Variance: Var=1−μ2\text{Var} = 1 - \mu^2Var=1−μ2 Plug in the numbers 65–35: μ = 0.30 Variance = 1−0.302=0.911 - 0.30^2 = 0.911−0.302=0.91 55–45: μ = 0.10 Variance = 1−0.102=0.991 - 0.10^2 = 0.991−0.102=0.99 �� Result The 55–45 coin has higher variance than the 65–35 coin So: ❌ SD is NOT the same ❌ variance does change with edge ✔ closer to 50–50 = higher variance �� Why their intuition is off They’re thinking: “The outcomes are still +1 or –1, so spread is the same” But variance isn’t just about the range of outcomes—it’s about: how often you land far from your average Example: 65–35: average = +0.30 outcomes are closer to expectation more often 55–45: average = +0.10 outcomes deviate more relative to expectation �� That increases variance ⚠️ Important nuance (this is where confusion comes from) If instead the game were defined as: win = +1 lose = 0 Then variance = p(1−p)p(1-p)p(1−p) In that case: still highest at 50–50 still decreases as edge increases �� So even in that model: their claim is still wrong �� Clean rebuttal you could use “That’s not correct. For a ±1 outcome, variance depends on the edge. A 55–45 coin has higher variance than a 65–35 coin because it’s closer to 50–50. Standard deviation is not constant—it decreases as the edge increases.” �� Bottom line ✔ They are confusing EV with variance ✔ Standard deviation is NOT constant across different probabilities ✔ Maximum variance occurs at 50–50 If you want, I can give you a super short one-liner reply that hits them cleanly without getting into equations. Here are a few clean one-liners you could use, depending on how direct you want to be: �� Simple and neutral “Standard deviation isn’t the same—variance is highest at 50/50 and decreases as the edge increases.” �� Slightly more pointed “That’s not correct—variance isn’t constant. A 55/45 coin has higher variance than a 65/35 coin because it’s closer to 50/50.” �� Very concise “Variance is maximized at 50/50, so a bigger edge actually lowers it.” �� If you want to tie it back to poker “Closer equity spots have higher variance—so a 55/45 situation is actually swingier than 65/35.” If you want one with just a hint of edge without being toxic, I’d go with the second one ��

I mean…I just showed you the graphs

LOL "This discussion is getting a bit to nerdy for me" and than that load of gibberish If you dont understand its fine but its not wise to rely on chatgpt But im also not sure you asked it the right question, and if you did it clearly didnt interpret it correctly (a common thing for AI) Because it says standard deviation isnt the same as variance... Correct, but nobody ever claimed that And it says "They are confusing EV with variance" but thats exactly what you did :p But you can just take one look at the confidence intervals in the posts above and see for yourself if you want to remain the statement that you have less variance versus whales. Without getting too nerdy of course 😉

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59296326#post59296326)

LOL "This discussion is getting a bit to nerdy for me" and than that load of gibberishIf you dont understand its fine but its not wise to rely on chatgptBut im also not sure you asked it the right question, and if you did it clearly didnt interpret it correctly (a common thing for AI)Because it says standard deviation isnt the same as variance... Correct, but nobody ever claime... See full post

I put in your exact quote: "What you explain in your coin flipping example is not variance, its expected value/result. The 65/35 coin gives you a bigger edge, but the standard deviation is exactly the same so it does not affect variance at all." All the AI's say that variance decreases the further you get from 50-50 and increases the closer you get to 50-50. So are you going to just double down on that statement? It is very easy to ask yourself if you think I may have prompted it in a way that makes you look wrong. Genuine question about your primedope example. I am not even necessarily trying to argue here. I am actually trying to understand and may be asking something stupid. You show two scenarios. One with a 2.5bb/100 win rate and a 100bb/100 SD. The other with a 5bb/100 win rate with 140bb/100 SD. Where are you deriving the SD numbers from? Can't anyone can just plug in whatever numbers they want for this and see the results? Is the higher SD with the 5bb/100 win rate that is plugged in just based on your own assumptions about what the SD is in fishier games? Can anyone go to primedope and do the reverse? Say plug in a 140bb/100 SD for a 2.5bb/100 win rate and a 100bb/100 SD for a 5bb/100 winrate and show the results the same as you did here? If so then how is this actually proving something about whether variance is higher in fishier games?

You are right in saying a 50-50 flips are more variance heavy than a 49-51 flip or 20-80 flip or whatever as shown here

( I said it wasnt before I must have misspoken or was thinking I was referring to something else, my bad I thought the point made (by you but also by others) was that playing versus fish is less variance heavy because you end up winning more often And the point I was making is that isnt the case, but its generally not grasped properly Like in this statement

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59295173#post59295173)

So you think if you are playing at a table with 7 Guy Lalibertes you would have more variance then playing at a table with 7 Phil Galfonds? That is interesting.

I will have to say I am not very familiar with Lalibertes style of play but if he is somewhat of a typical whale than yes, variance is higher with 7 Lalibertes than with 7 Galfonds. As is shown by the variance calculator examples. To answer your question about the primedope examples and st.dev, which is not a stupid one to ask at all btw SD numbers are as difficult as "true winrate" to call exactly, but you can get very close. Every tracker like HEM or PT4 has a st.dev stat so you can look it up for your game and style of play to see how it differs. If you have a tracker with a lot hands it might give you some more information. For myself I noticed that st.dev on zoom games where quite lower than on normal cash games, even though my normal cash game winrate was significantly higher and those games were fishier. And this is over a sample of millions of hands on both formats. So higher winrate did in fact combine with higher variance. In theory yes, you could plug-in any old number but the numbers I chose are very realistic and taken from experience, they arent plucked out of thin air. If you have many hands on different formats and table sizes you could also see that st.dev changes a lot depending on nlhe vs plo and fullring vs 6max vs HU. For PLO this is because you generally play bigger pots and have more combinations that want to continue or shove which increases st.dev and therefore variance. The same rhetoric goes for fishy players in comparison to regulars. I hope this cleared something up.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59296669#post59296669)

You are right in saying a 50-50 flips are more variance heavy than a 49-51 flip or 20-80 flip or whatever as shown hereIf I said it wasnt before I must have misspoken or was thinking I was referring to something else, my badI thought the point made (by you but also by others) was that playing versus fish is less variance heavy because you end up winning more oftenAnd the point ... See full post

Thanks for the response and I think I understand what you are saying here. I honestly am unsure if we actually have that much disagreement. Some of it might come down to just definitions and possibly not explaining well. I sort of already did this in an earlier message but let me try to give a rundown of how I see things and please tell me where you see I could be wrong. Hopefully this isn't boring you and I think its possible we both might learn something from each other. While I am certainly no trained mathematician I do think I have good intuitions about these things. I think regardless of how you want to specifically define variance in poker it is incredible complex and nuanced with too many variables to really have clear cut answers. I may not have been accurate in an earlier message that said "variance is lower against worse players". I may have also been too confident in the Guy Laliberte example. I actually don't think you can say variance is higher or lower against fish in any blanket statement like that. I think it can be either or depending on so many variables. Some of the variables that come to mind are game type, buy-in sizes, if you always quit after getting to a certain size stack ( especially in PLO), both your own play style and the play style of the fish and other opponents, ect ect. So that being said I don't think there is any poker variance calculator that can give any concrete answer as to whether variance is higher against fish or not. Even if I accept they are doing their job correctly with the inputs they are given. The reason why I started off with the weighted coin flip example is because that is the most basic model of variance without all of the variables that come with poker. In poker if you were simply playing only all-ins with the same stack sizes vs one opponent as a 65-35 favorite in one game vs a 55-45 favorite in another the variance would be lower in the game where you were always getting it in as a 65-35 favorite. Variance doesn't care if it is a coin flip or a PLO flip. At least I think that is the point I was trying to make there. I think one of the main reasons why standard deviation per 100 hands can be higher against fish is because many fish types provide more opportunities to put your money at risk. If say for example at a table of tight pros you on average find opportunities to risk only 100bbs/100 but with a table of fish you find more frequent opportunities and are averaging opportunities to risk 200bbs/100 then we can say with certainty that you have a greater chance to lose more against the fish simply because you are putting more money at risk over that sample. If I flip the coin 200 times in the 65-35 scenario and only flip the coin 100 times in the 55-45 scenario I have a chance to lose more in total in the 65-35 flips. But my likelihood of winning is so much higher in that 65-35 scenario that I have difficulty saying there is more variance in that example. Even if the total SD of the 65-35 scenario is technically higher. I will stop here because this is already too long. But there is much more to say especially when it comes to the real world application of this in actual poker games. And how it applies to what people like myself have experienced on ClubWPT.

Yea I think we might have hijacked this thread :p So I just say leave a brief reply and than let the RNG discussion continue, if they want to Not every fish is the same so you cant say variance is higher versus a fish per se. But in general, versus whales (who generally like to play too many hands, make rando bluffs and continue weak etc) you play more big pots which means more variance. But not every fish fits this profile but generally it is true. And yes variance is also affected by stack size, game, table size, style of play etc as I have mentioned before. A reggy/fishy game is just one of those variables

There doesn't seem to be much activity in this thread anyways. The actual evidence that I presented earlier has been largely ignored. And this conversation is pretty relevant because people like Echemondo are insistent that people's perceptions of something being wrong with ClubWPT is because there is more variance against bad players. I can only speak for myself and say that is not the explanation for my experience on ClubWPT. My personal results are not the only factor in this. It is the very consistent pattern of the terrible players not losing at the rate they should. And possibly even winning at impossible rates like in the examples I provided. Since the start of online poker there have always been a lot of dumb and unfounded claims on this topic. So I can understand why people might be automatically dismissive of there being something wrong here. But ClubWPT is not like other poker sites in the past. They don't even technically define themselves as being a poker site. They actually promote themselves as having the worst players and make it part of their marketing campaign. So yes there is a lot of incentive for them to have the bad players keep their money for as long as possible. Whether it is simply handicapping the players deemed as fish or in some way implanting their own fish to lure people in to playing. I still can't say for sure. But something is wrong here. Even though I am barely playing on their anymore, I have noticed significantly less PLO tables running the past few weeks. Again I won't pretend to know what that means but a sudden decline like this is interesting and must mean something.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59298034#post59298034)

There doesn't seem to be much activity in this thread anyways. The actual evidence that I presented earlier has been largely ignored. And this conversation is pretty relevant because people like Echemondo are insistent that people's perceptions of something being wrong with ClubWPT is because there is more variance against bad players. I can only speak for myself and say tha... See full post

In regards to "significantly less plo tables running" The density of VIP's has notably dropped. Myself, one of my very successful hs reg friends, and both of our friends/students have reminded ea other just how high rake is and how a game that's "just weak regs and a weak but not vip fish" on here may be not nearly as good as that same description on much lower rake. I personally know myself and many of the regs playing less given the rake and declining density of VIP's to justify it. I do think we've overshot it but I would suspect a ton of regs are smart enough to start picking up on this.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59298034#post59298034)

The actual evidence that I presented earlier has been largely ignored.

I read back quite a bit in ITT but im afraid I never saw anything close to "actual evidence", was it posted elsewhere? I did read stories about bad beats and the same players winning while being very bad, but I can read those about literally every poker site. But they always are just that, stories. And im sure you understand that stories without any foundation arent actual evidence...

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59298544#post59298544)

I read back quite a bit in ITT but im afraid I never saw anything close to "actual evidence", was it posted elsewhere? ...

I think he's referring to his first post in this thread at https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp... (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=59276333&postcount=158).

by Mike Haven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59298546#post59298546)

I think he's referring to his first post in this thread at https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp... (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=59276333&postcount=158).

OK yes I have read that. Its all "I saw this" and "I saw that" but nothing for us to see Nowhere near actual evidence, in fact I can find those stories with the same lack of proof about any site in the riggies thread

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59279433#post59279433)

Just witnessed a new record god mode run. ...

Well this is another follow up post with somewhat detailed stats about the second extreme godmode run I saw in two days. I included a few screenshots of the stack sizes at different hand intervals. Then I made an attempt to show how unlikely it was based off of some AI calculations. Then someone else who I don't know chimed in corroborating these events. I literally took over 300 photos on my phone of the all the hands played in the first god mode run in the first message. I have been meaning to go through all of them and figure out showdown vs non-showdown wins because that could be even more damming. So I provided evidence of two separate millions or billions to 1 coincidences happing in favor of the same player types in he same games on back to back days. I am not sure what else I can realistically do on site that has no hand histories. I have not heard any retort as to why this is not evidence that something is wrong. If someone has a logical explanation for it then of course I am open minded for my conclusions to be wrong.

If you guys really think there is foul play why don't you all download your hand histories and compile them in a database? Then we can see have a large enough sample to analyze and draw conclusions from. Oh, clubwpt doesn't allow that? I wonder why...

Tinfoil hats are on, baby

ive never once thought a poker site was rigged but something off about wpt gold the player pool is suss and the rng is beyond suss and i cant even download hh to provide proof of said sussness anyone know who owns it?

by floorsweep89 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59303081#post59303081)

ive never once thought a poker site was rigged but something off about wpt gold the player pool is suss and the rng is beyond suss and i cant even download hh to provide proof of said sussness anyone know who owns it?

I have been unable to find clear answers as to who owns it. Grand Cru Concepts is the company but I don't believe we know who owns that company. I believe the WPT brand we all know just licenses that name to Grand Cru Concepts. They do not own or run ClubWPT Gold.

by throwaway1million m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59248590#post59248590)

I am not complaining about losing, I’m massively + on the site. I am pro of twenty years, have played 6 million hands online I have a deep understanding of variance The rng does not feel right to me, nor my student who is also a crusher and many other winning playersIs something definitely off? Can’t say. Do I feel strongly that something is off while like you, sharing a health... See full post

yooo what's up DO IT! LETS GOOOOO!!!!

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59281206#post59281206)

Does this look like him? Unfortunately I don't think I have any other records of this run up he had to almost $1200 at .20 .40. I thought I had recorded the details. But I remember it was just like the other two runs I described. I think he bought in for $20 and ran to it up to this stack in the picture. He played continuously at this same table for some insane long time ... See full post

Ran into him again tonight. Lost to him in two back to back hands where I flopped top set on both. In the last hand, he called a 40bb bet on the flop with absolutely nothing and get it's all in on the turn to hit runner runner straight. I left the table right after. Here he is after just 45 minutes at that table. This is the third time I've run into him and every time it's like this, the first time he had over 4000bb's playing pretty much every hand just like he is tonight.

()

()

Less than an hour later - I'm posting these as it's happening.

()

now that's pretty sus

I’m up around 45k on the site but I do not believe it is legit. Can you win money if you play well? Sure. Are you being cheated by the house and/or other players? Probably.

Something is off, I’ve played millions of hands mainly HU Cash, I crushed for awhile but now players making big fundamental mistakes with high VPIP low SPR and small samples are coolering me in 3B/4B pots flop set over set, top two getting cracked by straights on turns in rivers that villain shouldn’t have in their range and SPR is 1-1 1/2. It’s to the point I know the set up before it happens and can say “I know he has X, but I can’t fold, folding is a mistake” call and see my instincts were right. Idk I don’t want to be this “fish” online is rigged guy” but…

played over 8m hands MSNL+ online, lots of 6max but a good chunk of 9max and HU across many sites. Never have I questioned a RNG until now lol. Just watching myself and other good regs seemingly on the wrong side of things vs fish a disproportionate amount of the time. Winning at a good clip on this site over 120k hands in the 1/2/4 - 2/4/8NLH 8 max games but I am suspicious as it gets

by Doogu m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59306298#post59306298)

Less than an hour later - I'm posting these as it's happening. ... See full post

Thanks for the report. Did you notice how many buy-ins he was in for? Did you end up seeing how long he played and what he left with? Are these really your first posts on here or is this a different account? Just curious if we have a new witness. The more people who are noticing this the better in getting more evidence. I haven't been playing much on there so I don't have much new to report. Other then the amount of low stakes PLO tables running has really dried up.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59307759#post59307759)

Thanks for the report. Did you notice how many buy-ins he was in for? Did you end up seeing how long he played and what he left with? Are these really your first posts on here or is this a different account? Just curious if we have a new witness. The more people who are noticing this the better in getting more evidence. I haven't been playing much on there so I don't have... See full post

Ensure all the screenshots are sent to Gold to investigate, if this player is doing this regularly it is possible super-user territory. Given this site is a training site I highly doubt they have the sophisticated security systems that more established operators use and are therefore more vulnerable to exploits. As we know this happened at GG of all sites so not beyond the bounds of possibility.

by Truth2038 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59307759#post59307759)

Thanks for the report. Did you notice how many buy-ins he was in for? Did you end up seeing how long he played and what he left with? Are these really your first posts on here or is this a different account? Just curious if we have a new witness. The more people who are noticing this the better in getting more evidence. I haven't been playing much on there so I don't have... See full post

These are my first posts, I usually don't post any forums at all, but this was just too ridiculous in addition to the player's history posted before. He sat down at the table after I did and within 20 minutes or so stacked me twice with the hands I mentioned. I had already ran into him twice before and it was the same type of play and his having an outrageous number of bb's in front of him the past few weeks. I'm pretty sure he was only in for a single buy in but I wasn't paying close enough attention to say for sure. You can see that between the first and second screen shots, which was less than an hour apart, there were no other players with huge stacks and the max buy in is 200bb. I don't know how he ended up doing, I went to bed after the second screenshot. Another thing I noticed regarding his play is that his decisions are pretty instant, within 1 second of his turn, and the longest I saw him take was maybe 2 seconds. The playout seemed like a similar pattern from hand to hand from what I could tell, where he would call down flop and turn then pot the river either as a raise or just lead if he was oop. In the specific hands that I played against him, both times I flopped the nuts and all the money goes in on the turn and he ends up rivering me - seemed like setup hands to get as much of my money in the pot while I had the best hand until the river. In one hand, he called the flop with absolutely nothing, no pair or draw, turned an open ended straight draw, and hit on the river after the money went in on the turn. It went 5 ways to the flop and he had 3 players to act after him, so his 50bb call on the flop made no sense at all. In the second hand, he flopped a 10 high flush draw, again in a multi-way pot, all the money went in on the turn. Not as suspect as the first hand, but it's hard to believe someone playing like that could do so consistently well, also considering that he has a 90%+ VPIP.

Ive registered about 120k hands in the NL100 streets and sometimes I feel like an inkling that there is nonsense going on but there are also times I get floated by 50/10 fish on K83 when they have Q9o and my 77 will win at showdown after they show no plan to bluff later streets, so I think its mostly just very poor play from people that watch 1 rampage video on youtube and think "gee I can do that". Wearing the tinfoil hat and getting all worked up without hard evidence seems foolish The comment about lack of access to hand history database surely does raise an eyebrow for me though

by ThePokerGuy888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59312980#post59312980)

Ive registered about 120k hands in the NL100 streets and sometimes I feel like an inkling that there is nonsense going on but there are also times I get floated by 50/10 fish on K83 when they have Q9o and my 77 will win at showdown after they show no plan to bluff later streets, so I think its mostly just very poor play from people that watch 1 rampage video on youtube and thin... See full post

go sit with OPPMoney at PLO and if you have a winning session then get back to me. whether or not people are winning at other tables doesn't mean there aren't super users/cheaters. if the above stacks and hand examples aren't enough for you then don't contribute to the discussion.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59316128#post59316128)

Asking someone to “go sit with X and come back” isn’t evidence, it’s deflection. You have a couple very unique situations and in your mind come to a definite conclusion. Wasting time overanalyzing yet seems futile.

i've withdrawn somewhere around $20k from wptgold. multi-tabling through about 210k hands so far. watch for the maniacs winning all in pots with gutters and all the money going in on the turn. that's after playing 68o for a 3 bet or T9o for a 4 bet pre. anyone who gets frisky like that knows that you just go broke so fast haha. but there are SO MANY of these that happen, and most of the players have sub 5k hands played, so either something is fishy in terms of bot accounts - or - something is fishy in terms of new players binking at a crazy rate. neither would surprise me. i just want to win at something close to expected EV. and maybe i actually am?? but there's no way to tell!!

256k hands here. Up 25k+ on the site. Played every stake from .05/.10 to 2/4/8 depending on how much money I have available (not a pro anymore and just play for side income). Main stake ive made $ at has been 100NL. Currently playing .10/.20/.40. Not sure about RNG. I've seen crushers from other sites playing SSNL with 100k hands breakeven. Yes my opponents are absolute droolers that win at a disipropationate rate. Would love to see an all in ev graph if only we could see the hand histories �� The biggest problem I see now is botting. Not the RNG. If you're a good player, you'll still win even running below EV. But the botting has become really bad. Players with identical stats playing at the same table. The bot operators used to not be greedy. Now, not so much. Especially since Canada entered the market. How many new players with less than 10k hands are playing 32/21 26/17 or 25/15 playing micros. Playing well at the micros. I know the player pool. Seems extremely unlikely. Luckily the fish love to sit me since I make it known that I'm not a bot. So I dodge them and try to avoid them the best I can. But at FR tables that's kind of hard. Hoping WPT Gold steps it up with the bot prevention. It's obvious to any good player who the bots are. I can avoid them but it's sad to see the fish get eviscerated. Hope someone can step in! And get the situation under control.

by jungmit m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59326588#post59326588)

I mean we all know this bad beats in poker. But I'm saying to you I don't play too often at this site but every time I play at this site I take three or four bad beats in about a half an hour. Now maybe I'm just unlucky at this one site? But I don't see it anywhere else on this regular basis. I don't see it live like this so I don't get it. Like my opinion is with the EV that I... See full post

by jungmit m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59329083#post59329083)

Site is chit. 1 outeed again. Guess I am taking money off. Why deal with this when u can just focus on other sites and not deal with it nearly as often

You said the same thing about coinpoker, phenom and ignition just to name a few It seems like every site is rigged against you Must be tough

Hypothetically, if a site did add a little variance against regs, it would take a lot to nullify a solid edge, right? Also that's assuming malice. What if was just poor RNG due to lack regulation and incompetence etc? Who is the regulator and what company backs the RNG? Just curious.

by Basketballcoach22 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59329543#post59329543)

256k hands here. Up 25k+ on the site. Played every stake from .05/.10 to 2/4/8 depending on how much money I have available (not a pro anymore and just play for side income). Main stake ive made $ at has been 100NL. Currently playing .10/.20/.40. Not sure about RNG. I've seen crushers from other sites playing SSNL with 100k hands breakeven. Yes my opponents are absolute drooler... See full post

Doesn't seem like this site has much of a security team if any. I wouldn’t hold your breath.

site imo is rigged as f, ive been playing for years and I can spot when I am a sucker. I still win money but going forward after I cashout it won't be the case anymore since I got doomswitch it seems. i have been observing their mini games too and its rigged as shit. leave that site asap if u think u r going to make money from that site. I have no proof but its just my opinion.

by jbless888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59344170#post59344170)

I still win money

by jbless888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59344170#post59344170)

leave that site asap if u think u r going to make money

Wait.. whut.. which one is it?

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59344638#post59344638)

Wait.. whut.. which one is it?

It’s both. If you don’t and can’t even play on Clubwptgold why are you hanging out here giving your worthless opinions? Just to troll?

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59345382#post59345382)

It’s both. If you don’t and can’t even play on Clubwptgold why are you hanging out here giving your worthless opinions? Just to troll?

Im not trolling. Somebody told me he is still winning but one shouldnt expect to be winning... But I've read enough of your posts to know that you cant see self-contradiction.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59345422#post59345422)

Im not trolling. Somebody told me he is still winning but one shouldnt expect to be winning... But I've read enough of your posts to know that you cant see self-contradiction.

This idiot can’t comprehend that players can still turn a profit on a crooked site.

You are the one failing to understand basic logic here If he is winning, just like so may others, why did he claim "leave that site asap if u think u r going to make money". Its contradictory. So I asked "which one is it?"... Because they cant exist together (again: if there are enough winners other people thinking to win shouldnt leave the site and vice versa if people shouldnt expect to win on the site there couldnt be so many winners proving the opposite. Its a mystery how you cant grasp something so easy to understand.

sorry my bad, you can still win money cuz I am a good player win without showdown and just taking uncontested pots but it seems like I get set up so many times its just unreal. it just not worth it to squeak out a measly hourly there. I never question online poker till I play this site(except for ub n ap). So for me no point in playing on that site anymore and they are operating illegally(grey area at best) so sooner or later they will get ban like FTP once america gets it shit together unless the laws change but we need regulations for all states. I dont trust that site at all. GL if u still play there.

there has been examples of rigged online sites so online poker has been rigged.

by jbless888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59345983#post59345983)

sorry my bad

Thats a solid response 👍 Learn from this DBF by jbless888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59345996#post59345996)

there has been examples of rigged online sites so online poker has been rigged.

Please elaborate. Which online poker sites have knowingly rigged their RNG in the past? And please add some evidence if you can. I've been in online a long time and have seen many cases from superusers to ghosting to RTA to botfarms to colluding, you name it. And all proven. But I've never seen an example of a rigged RNG on a certified pokersite.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59346160#post59346160)

by jbless888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59345983#post59345983)

sorry my bad

Thats a solid response 👍 Learn from this DBF by jbless888 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59345996#post59345996)

there has been examples of rigged online sites so online poker has been rigged.

Please elaborate. Which online poker sites have knowingly rigged their RNG in the past? And please add some evidence if you can.I've been in online a long time and have seen many cases from superusers to ghosting to RTA to botfarms to colluding... See full post

im not saying all sites is rigged but I can't say they are clean as well. if a past site can superusers, current site can be rigged even with an RNG certificate non? did UB/AP not have a RNG certificate, that is history so I dont know. but back to this site, im done with it. this site just too rigged for my liking.

Yea but you said "there has been examples of rigged online sites so online poker has been rigged." Please name them and show the proof that led you to that statement as im interested. And remember, superusing is completely different than rigging an RNG. "hey I saw you steal something, that must mean you murder too. You are going away for life" logic

cheating is cheating non? breaking the law is breaking the law non(don't get me wrong not all crimes are the same)? when did I say anything about RNG I just said they are rigged btw does this site even have a RNG certificate? But anyways im done, ill let you guys keep debating/arguing.

You need to read up on what rigged means. "In online poker, "rigged" means a player believes the platform or software is cheating, usually by manipulating the dealing algorithms to create bad beats, favor certain players, or maximize the site's rake (fees)." Cheating is cheating you are correct, but rigging is something very specific If a game is full of colluders or RTA'ers you are certainly being cheated.. by players! Rigged means you are being cheated by the platform's algorithm i.e. the RNG In poker there are cheaters galore... riggedness remains a fairy tale.

yea past site has super user so that is rigged...by the platform... does having RNG certificate means it can't be rigged U be naive to think just cause a certificate means it can't be rigged though but I can't prove anything so its w/e. Let u guys keep debating though 😀 have a nice day this is what AI says so take it fwiw Yes, an online poker site with a Random Number Generator (RNG) certificate can still be rigged or compromised.While a legitimate RNG certificate means the algorithm itself generates truly unpredictable sequences of numbers, it is not a foolproof guarantee of a fair game. An RNG certificate is just one lock on the door; it does not protect against a broken window or a dishonest homeowner.Understanding how a certified site can still be unsafe requires looking at the technical loopholes, systemic flaws, and alternative methods of cheating.

1. Code Manipulation and Server BypassAn RNG certificate proves that a specific piece of software generates random numbers under testing conditions. However, the auditing agency (like iTech Labs or GLI) does not have a real-time, backdoor monitor on live production servers at all times.The "Switch" Loophole: A rogue operator could submit a perfectly fair RNG script to pass certification, but run a slightly altered, rigged script on their live, public tables.Conditional Logic: The RNG might be completely random 99% of the time, but feature hardcoded overrides. For example, the software could be written to trigger a specific card sequence if a designated account (a "superuser") is active in the hand.
2. The Certificate Itself Can Be FakeUnregulated, "grey-market, " or offshore poker platforms often use deceptive trust tactics.Fabricated Badges: A site can easily Photoshop an "RNG Certified" badge onto their homepage footer without actually undergoing an independent audit.Expired Audits: Sites frequently display outdated certificates from years prior without paying for ongoing, routine recertification.Corrupt Auditing: In completely unregulated jurisdictions, certificates can occasionally be purchased from disreputable, rubber-stamp testing firms.
3. "Rigged" Environments (Cheating Without Touching the Cards)A poker site's card dealing can be 100% random, yet the game can still be completely rigged against you due to security failures. When major modern scandals break, they almost never involve rigged card dealing; instead, they involve environment manipulation:Superuser Exploits: Infamous historical scandals (and modern security breaches) occur when a software vulnerability or a rogue insider allows certain accounts to see opponents' hole cards in real time. The deck remains random, but the cheater has perfect information.House Bots and Collusion: The RNG deals fair cards, but the platform turns a blind eye to coordinated networks of automated bots or colluding players who share card data to drain organic players.How to Protect YourselfTo minimize your risk, always cross-reference a site's claims with heavy community scrutiny:Check the Source: Do not trust a graphic badge. Click the RNG badge; it should link directly to a verified, live verification URL hosted on the third-party auditor's official domain (e.g., itechlabs.com or gaminglabs.com).Stick to Tier-1 Regulated Sites: Play on platforms heavily regulated by strict government entities (such as state gaming commissions or strict European authorities) rather than unregulated offshore setups. Heavily regulated sites face catastrophic legal and financial ruin if they tamper with software.Look for Provably Fair Tech: Some modern crypto-focused poker platforms utilize Provably Fair algorithms. This cryptographic method allows players to seed the shuffle themselves and personally verify that the deck was untampered with after the hand concludes.If you are evaluating a specific poker platform, feel free to share the name of the site or where it is licensed, and I can help you look into its regulatory track record.

clubwpt gold is the only site around now without a rng certificate actually.

Clubwptgold is not real poker, it’s a perverted sweepstakes game. Once you process a few large withdraws the algorithm will attempt to claw back their money. It might work like a sports book with limiting winning players.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59346351#post59346351)

clubwpt gold is the only site around now without a rng certificate actually.

Google AI: Club WPT Gold (like many sweepstakes models) operates legally under consumer sweepstakes laws rather than traditional real-money gambling. Because they are not a licensed, real-money online casino, they are not legally mandated to undergo the same rigorous, third-party Random Number Generator (RNG) testing required of traditional gaming platforms. Regulatory Classification: By using virtual currency (Gold Coins) and offering Sweeps Coins for prize drawings, the site skirts the traditional regulatory licensing that requires certified RNG testing. No Audits Required: Without a gaming commission dictating third-party audits (like GLI or iTech Labs), there is no public certificate available for the platform's shuffle mechanics.

Superusing isnt the same as being rigged. I see people dont get that, i guess because superusing is definitely cheating, but again rigging is something very specific meaning the deck is unfair/biased towards players. Like the common theory that good players (which riggies think they are) are being disadvantaged while bad players (which they think they arent, but mostly are) are being helped. An RNG certification proves this isnt the case. Superusing has been a scandal on AP/UB but its different. Its someone from within seeing the opponent cards. They dont have influence on dealings and dont get more flushes or straights or whatever. Obviously, it was one of the worst scandals in online poker and players left immediately and the sites are extinct (as they should be) An RNG certification does prove the deck isnt rigged. It doesnt prove there isnt superusing, rta, collusion etc. Its very specific on the fair dealings of cards. I would never ever play on a site without an RNG certification and would advice anyone to avoid those, even if its just for peace of mind. Although I do get in some locations the options are slim and people decide to "take the risk" anyway. However, if one decides to play on a site without an RNG certification its kinda weird to complain about it afterwards. And its even more insane to complain about it yet keep on playing there. I would also be very hesitant to play a site that doesnt offer hand histories, partly because this is how most botrings & other cheaters were caught... Your numbered points:

1. its not the case that a rogue operator is handing out a RNG script to be checked, thats not how tests are performed. Millions and millions of outcomes (hands) are being checked for non-randomness.
2. while technically a site could make a fake photoshop rng certificate to place on their site you can always check on the third-party distributor if they have been checked. For instance, if a site says they are checked by Ecogra but on their site there is nothing to be found it would ring alarm bells. But you are only one google search away from finding this out.
3. This is proving what I said before. Its not rigging, you are being cheated by other ways. Bots, collusion, superusing etc. But I cant believe how many times I have to say this. That isnt what rigging means. And an RNG certification doesnt involve those things. There is no certificate that can prove your opponents arent using a solver while playing, arent messaging each other etc. Yes all those fall under the category of cheating, but not under the category of rigging.

That’s all fair but Clubwptgold is touting itself as legal poker and using the WPT brand and paid ambassadors like Doug Polk to buy credibility with the community. They don’t advertise the fact that the platform is run by a Cyprus based company called Grand Cru Ltd and not WPT which is owned by Element Partners LLC.

site def not rigged. def no bot players. def no site bots... sitting $250 deep at $0.20/$0.50/$1.00 MP with $100 stack opens to $4, i 3bet AA on btn to $12. SB has a $250 stack also, he 4 bets to $36. he has 20/14 stats, so a bit tighter than my 25/15. MP folds, i call. FLOP J 9 7 rainbow. he leads $30. i min click it to $60. he insta jams. i call it off. he has KQ. uhhhh TURN T obviously. wait what? so an OOP 4 bet from a tight player and then an insta flop 3 bet jam w/ a gutter that of course comes through for a massive pot. IB4 yOu WaNt To Be PLaYiNg AgAiNsT ThEm if someone can explain it, please do. no one playing 20/14 makes that play with a 200BB stack. if i made a list of the insane beats for the past week, it would crush the 2+2 server! pretty sure my all in ev is minus 5k over 2 weeks. could be variance... or...? ... and his BB aces stack my SB tens preflop exactly one orbit later. lol.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59346591#post59346591)

That’s all fair but Clubwptgold is touting itself as legal poker

Are they legal? If so, than thats a fair touting. As far as I know they are not touting themselves as a room with a certified RNG, it touts itself as sweepstake. So its not like you are getting conned in that area. You know what risks you are taking. If Doug Polk wants to be an ambassador for an uncertified sweepstake site for a bit of cash thats his choice. Just like people choose to play on such a site. I think both those choices are terrible but thats just my opinion. by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59346793#post59346793)

site def not rigged. def no bot players.

I dont think there is any site where there arent bots or other cheaters active. Cheating players will always find a way, even if its just short-term. So are there bots on a dubious site like clubwptgold? I would put my money on yes. Is it rigged? well, if it had a certified rng I would claim that it isnt. But not having one is a terrible look imo. However, saying there are rigs or bots active by retelling bad beats or funny played hands obiously means nothing in the bigger picture.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59347058#post59347058)

Are they legal? If so, than thats a fair touting.As far as I know they are not touting themselves as a room with a certified RNG, it touts itself as sweepstake. So its not like you are getting conned in that area. You know what risks you are taking.If Doug Polk wants to be an ambassador for an uncertified sweepstake site for a bit of cash thats his choice. Just like people choo... See full post

Yeah you seem to misunderstand my concern and point. I’m not arguing against the existence of free will. Sweepstakes poker operates in a legal grey area. Overall I’m a fan of Doug but he’s shown in the past that he’s willing to put his name on anything as long as he’s getting a paycheck.

For most of my life I have played online poker in a legal grey area, mostly Pokerstars, simply because there wasnt online gambling regelation in my country yet. And those were the glory days :p I was however exclusively playing on sites with an RNG certification. From what I could find on google searches clubwptgold is completely legal in 43 states of the usa under sweepstake laws. So if you live in one of those its not a grey area. But yea, it doesnt fall under state-regulated real money poker so thats a bummer. Unless you live in 1 of the 6 states that does have those. Its crazy to me as an outsider that the country where poker came from isnt up-to-date with laws and regulations concerning but I guess that partly because of the downsides of state seperate politics.

just having a certified RNG doesn't mean anything unless the codebase is reviewed too. (someone else pointed this out too.) and of course, a certain level of trust has to be in place since the code can be modified anytime. im a developer, you can have a legit RNG and still skew the game, not saying they are, but... no rng, no histories, no chat, constant new players seeming to win at crazy rates, many regs talking about it, etc. it all adds up to a bunch of questions. im aware bad beat stories are obnoxious. just want to highlight the details because when looked at as a whole, it seems questionable. if you believe there are bots on wptgold, do you believe any are house bots? we know how easy it is for people to code and deploy bots; imagine how simple it would be for a company to do it internally. no histories make it nearly impossible to tell. gotta remember that at the root of "why would they do that" - is the answer of "money". by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59347058#post59347058)

Are they legal? If so, than thats a fair touting.As far as I know they are not touting themselves as a room with a certified RNG, it touts itself as sweepstake. So its not like you are getting conned in that area. You know what risks you are taking.If Doug Polk wants to be an ambassador for an uncertified sweepstake site for a bit of cash thats his choice. Just like people choo... See full post

RNG cerfication checks the outcome of the rng-process as well, so it checks millions and millions of dealt hands If the codebase or seed is skewed or in any way unfair/biased it will create an unfair/biased outcome (i.e. an unfair non-random dealing of cards) And with a non-random dealing of cards it would have never passed the RNG certification. So by certifying the outcomes/hands are dealt fairly you are safe in trusting the codebase/seed. Concerning house bots, I cant tell if they exist but I can say this. A site can only "pull off" having housebots if the site is untracked and hudless and it would also help if its was sweepstakes rather than a classic certified online casino. So that clubwpt gold falls into all the bad categories there is certainly not a good look on them.

player XForDeception tonight: 5,000 hands played on the site, 35/14 stats, builds his stack up to $1,900 on a $100 NL table. if you've played, you know how insanely difficult that is to do in NLHE. it was mostly from coolers, with him on the right side every time. on a 2nd table, he had a $800 stack. barely saw him lose half a buy in from any one single hand. best part is when the table breaks, it's just he and i left HU. i have about $200 in front of me, he raises, i defend T6s. flop 664, nice. i chk, he bets, i raise since that's the play with stack sizes, he calls. turn 4. i bet big, he calls. river 8. i check. he jams. i mean... it has to be a call, it's HU. he shows 68s to stack me, after literally like 5 hands HU, in hilarious fashion. in 8 months i've only seen a 20 BI stack size maybe two times. so this relative newbie either had the run of a lifetime, or??? i've never witnessed so much crazy **** as the players that call 1/3 their stack in 4-bet pots and then just miracle the nut run outs, know how often putting 1/3 of my stack in w/ 68s works against KK? it's not a thing! or the players with 500 total hands on the site flopping sets at will when HU vs AA and KK for repeated 400BB pots. those are 3 and 4 bet pots too of course. like god damn, that sure is some friendly RNG! i wish i had sessions recorded, you would laugh at the insane spots, but then i'd have to relive it and prolly jump off the roof. some of the bluffs are also interesting. players will call a 3 bet pre OOP, then go chk call, chk call, and then lead blast the river all in on non board changing cards. if you're not at least holding 2p vs that line, it's kinda tough to put all the money in. what maniac takes that line, when they could be up against anything uncapped? it's a crazy play that should not often be successful, but, if i could see the cards, i'd be more willing to make that play. or, you know, if it's a house bot and it doesn't really matter if it wins that hand or not, as long as it wins SOMETIMES. sigh. im just looking for fair games, i dont know if we'll ever actually have them though.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59353174#post59353174)

i wish i had sessions recorded, you would laugh at the insane spots

Us too by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59353174#post59353174)

im just looking for fair games, i dont know if we'll ever actually have them though.

If you are looking for fair games but decide to play on a sweepstakes site without an RNG certification you are not looking that hard

by jungmit m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59353740#post59353740)

I will tell you what I understand. There is zero chance that this site deals 100% randomly. I will eat my shoes live on YouTube if they could ever prove that they're dealing 100% randomly. I have never been all in so many times and chopped the pot with another player as I have on this site. I have never in my life played 15,000 hands of hold'em and then been involved in flush a... See full post

I would ask you for evidence of these numbers but I know wptgold doesnt have hand histories to import and how. Therefore a different question, how are you so certain on all these numbers when there is zero documentationof it? Like if I played 15k hands untracked I wouldnt know I was in flush vs flush 75 times etc, I would certainly need a tracker to give me the (close to) exact numbers So are these numbers plucked out of thin air or do you keep tallies? It also doesnt help that I've seen you claim the RNG is rigged on about 3 other sites here as well (for which hand histories can be shown but you refused). Its either a worldwide conspiracy of multiple pokersites rigging the deck against you or you might not be at the level of poker you think you are.

by jungmit m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59353740#post59353740)

I will tell you what I understand. There is zero chance that this site deals 100% randomly. I will eat my shoes live on YouTube if they could ever prove that they're dealing 100% randomly. I have never been all in so many times and chopped the pot with another player as I have on this site. I have never in my life played 15,000 hands of hold'em and then been involved in flush a... See full post

Didn't realize you were responding to me but I don't need convincing. I'm of the opinion something is very off on this site and while I can't put it into words I have a handful of irl friends who have been playing poker for well over a decade too saying the same thing + Pokerarb posted itt and he said the same. That's good enough for me. Now with that being said. You guys aren't doing yourself any favors throwing around terms you clearly don't seem to understand.

I’ve never hit so many monster sets and two pairs in 4bet pots and still manage to lose to some unknown fish. It’s bizarre!

Been wanting to post about this for a while. Does anyone know who OMGNFD is? I am convinced hes some sort of WPT mole. I have never seen the guy lose a hand with AA, over a a very large sample. It is impossible how pure this nit **** runs, and I would love to hear that he is an actual human being. I have nearly half a million hands of PLO on the site and am guessing this guy is running over 100 buy ins over EV against me alone. But i'll never know because, well you know why

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59369260#post59369260)

There was talk about the RNG that was broken out into another thread in the discussions forum. Quite a few long time players have their spidey senses tingling.

I thought they had it verified by a third party? After i saw that I stopped following the thread. I've given and received a ton of bad beats on there over 200K plus sample size. I'm not concerned in the least about the RNG being off. There's no reason for the WPT to want something like this to happen. They have been around for a very long time. I've said before there are glitches on the site. It's possible there is a glitch but it hasn't stopped me from winning over a large sample. I was much more concerned that I was getting scammed over at GG poker a few years ago due to a PVI scam and allowing people to 16 table on the site and when you tried to table select to beat the insanse rake they would ban you. WPT 100x better than the GG as far as I'm concerned.

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59370013#post59370013)

I expect to win with 90% equity 90% of the time. Not 5%, or 10%, or even 50% (its closer to 10% in reality) Its pretty simple stuff

I’ve made so much off this site, that it’s somewhat dumb to complain, but there’s something going on.

by ILLSIDED m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59370845#post59370845)

I’ve made so much off this site, that it’s somewhat dumb to complain, but there’s something going on.

lol, I find it comical that ppl are still complaining about this a half a year later. So what’s the verdict, guys? Is it you’re bad and get good or is something off? I play almost exclusively live now so I don’t care but curious what grinders who’ve been playing on that site since January think.

Just as variance can explain months of what seem like impossibly improbable runouts, variance can also account for occasional big wins by seemingly good players getting through the cracks of a manipulated algo. I won a lot on there in 2025, up quite a bit as a part time rec, and barely play there now. Do with that what you will. NOTE: check my Scope for the Gold numbers...oh, nm.

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59370867#post59370867)

lol, I find it comical that ppl are still complaining about this a half a year later. So what’s the verdict, guys? Is it you’re bad and get good or is something off? I play almost exclusively live now so I don’t care but curious what grinders who’ve been playing on that site since January think.

It's comical that live regs who don't play on the site are so invested, but hey, you don't care right? But yes, it's just a case of we're all bad and need to get good. Perhaps a live reg can teach us?

Watched a buddy play a session a few days ago and saw another 90/70 with 2k hands sitting on 3000bbs hitting 2 outers against regs in 800bb pots Occasionally you should see really good regs with like 10000 bbs right? Considering how easy it is for massive whales to run up 3000 bb stacks there should be good regs hitting 10k all the time, right? Thats how it would go when I was playing on Pokerstars in the golden age against tougher competition. Occasionally you ran up a 20 bi stack

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372196#post59372196)

Watched a buddy play a session a few days ago and saw another 90/70 with 2k hands sitting on 3000bbs hitting 2 outers against regs in 800bb potsOccasionally you should see really good regs with like 10000 bbs right? Considering how easy it is for massive whales to run up 3000 bb stacks there should be good regs hitting 10k all the time, right?Thats how it would go when I was p... See full post

With a shorter effective stack size, the skilled player has a smaller edge. Loose players have larger swings than tighter ones.

My guy, you need to go back to square one and redo your effective rake math before you get into additional math. Your comments are actually worse than meaningless.

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372321#post59372321)

My guy, you need to go back to square one and redo your effective rake math before you get into additional math. Your comments are actually worse than meaningless.

First of all, I am not your guy. Second, this is not tournament poker. We are not concerned with how long we can survive because survival has some inherent value on its own. What matters here is the preflop stack-to-pot ratio before any action. At 8-handed 200NL, there is $7.5 in the pot preflop. Thus, the stack-to-ratio is 200/7.5=26.667. If there were no antes, just a three-blind structure of $0.50/$1/$2. There is $3.5 in the pot preflop. We would have the same stack-to-pot ratio with a stack of 3.5*26.667=93.335. In other words, 93.335/2=46.668 times the big blind. This is our effective stack depth. Both of the things I said in my prior post are 100% accurate. And if you think about them logically (but I can tell this is not your strong suit), they address your point. It’s comical that you call my comments meaningless when yours are essentially “[emoji33] OMG! It’s rigged! [emoji24].”

by coordi m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372196#post59372196)

Watched a buddy play a session a few days ago and saw another 90/70 with 2k hands sitting on 3000bbs hitting 2 outers against regs in 800bb potsOccasionally you should see really good regs with like 10000 bbs right? Considering how easy it is for massive whales to run up 3000 bb stacks there should be good regs hitting 10k all the time, right?Thats how it would go when I was p... See full post

So then play like a whale and profit, sounds like you cracked the system!

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372141#post59372141)

It's comical that live regs who don't play on the site are so invested, but hey, you don't care right? But yes, it's just a case of we're all bad and need to get good. Perhaps a live reg can teach us?

Hey, ******, thanks for the reply. Invested? I haven’t commented in here in the past 6 months. FYI, I played strictly online before moving to live, I lived abroad for over 8 years just so I could play online for a living. I was just simply asking bc I too thought something was off back when I played on the site. Next time, don’t act like such a miserable **** to a genuine question. Guarantee i am more theoretically sound than you are and have a better understanding of how the game works. I’m not on 2p2 crying about losing at 50 and 100 PLO.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59354417#post59354417)

Didn't realize you were responding to me but I don't need convincing. I'm of the opinion something is very off on this site and while I can't put it into words I have a handful of irl friends who have been playing poker for well over a decade too saying the same thing + Pokerarb posted itt and he said the same. That's good enough for me. Now with that being said. You guys aren'... See full post

Yea, me too, it’s why I commented. I know hs regs that think something is off as well. Then again, I know others that play and have never thought that. How about not being such a fkn miserable **** when you reply to other in this thread going forward?

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372705#post59372705)

Hey, ******, thanks for the reply. Invested? I haven’t commented in here in the past 6 months. FYI, I played strictly online before moving to live, I lived abroad for over 8 years just so I could play online for a living. I was just simply asking bc I too thought something was off back when I played on the site. Next time, don’t act like such a miserable **** to a g... See full post

Love how triggered you are for someone who doesn't care. Couldn't beat online poker so started grinding rent money playing 1/3. Good luck little man. by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372714#post59372714)

Yea, me too, it’s why I commented. I know hs regs that think something is off as well. Then again, I know others that play and have never thought that. How about not being such a fkn miserable **** when you reply to other in this thread going forward?

Stay triggered little man.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372910#post59372910)

Love how triggered you are for someone who doesn't care. Couldn't beat online poker so started grinding rent money playing 1/3. Good luck little man. Stay triggered little man.

LMAO, thinking the RNG is rigged while telling me I can’t beat online is fkn comical. I was triggered bc you were extremely disrespectful and you still are. But you’re right though, why let some fkn loser who can’t beat low stakes on the softest site on the planet get to me? Total waste of time. GL man, RNG is def rigged against you and only you hahahahah. Deluded ass loser.

by Vinyll m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372702#post59372702)

So then play like a whale and profit, sounds like you cracked the system!

That’s obviously not how it works. The crown winners get to play like apes and win 24/7 but if you aren’t a crown winner don’t try that you’ll just lose.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59372946#post59372946)

That’s obviously not how it works. The crown winners get to play like apes and win 24/7 but if you aren’t a crown winner don’t try that you’ll just lose.

So how do they become crown winners if the rig only starts working when you win one? Do I need to email doug?

LMAO, thinking the RNG is rigged while telling me I can’t beat online is fkn comical. GL man, RNG is def rigged against you and only you hahahahah. Deluded ass loser.

This doesn't work after you agree with me something is/feels off.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373164#post59373164)

This doesn't work after you agree with me something is/feels off.

That was months ago when Tgigs made a post complaining about it, unlike you, he’s actually good at the game and an OG so his opinion is worth taking under consideration. Then I realized you’re no diff than the guy above saying crown holders have better RNG LMAO. You both are deluded and mediocre at the game. Instead of responding to others like a POS *******, run some more sims and get good.

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373186#post59373186)

Yea, me too

Yesterday, 06:35 PM

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373186#post59373186)

That was months ago

😃

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373212#post59373212)

😃

Yea, when i made the original post months ago. This is why I commented a couple days ago bc I was curious on whether or not ppl in this thread reached a consensus. Then you responded like a fkn douchebag and you expect me to what? Not respond back in the same manner? You were fkn out of line and now you're trying to backtrack, imagine acting like a POS and then asking why you're so triggered, lmao, are you fkn mentally handicapped? You are a **** person inside and out and you're a bitter **** to other ppl bc deep down you know you're **** and understudied. You make weak ass excuses like it's the RNG while never putting in the work outside of the game. You are weak.

()

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373262#post59373262)

Yea, replying with a meme is just pathetic, but coming from you not very surprising. I find it comical that you said I was so invested, but you have 30x more posts than me in half the time averaging 5 posts a day. Imagine if you ran 5 sims a day in that same timespan. You wouldn’t be in here acting like such a miserable **** with your tiny tin foil hat.

Just wanted to chime in here and hopefully put some of this to bed. I think it’s important to understand how the 3-blind structure with antes, combined with games that are incredibly high VPIP/high PFR, affects variance. The standard deviation in this format is much higher than what a lot of people are used to. I mix volume on ClubWPT Gold with a few other sites and live poker. I grind the Sunday MTTs as well, and I’ve played roughly 120k hands of NLHE and 40k hands of PLO cash games on the site. During that stretch I’ve had $20k swings in both directions (roughly 50–100 buy-ins since I mix stakes), and I’ve had single days where I’ve won or lost 15–20 buy-ins. On my worst day, I got one-outed three separate times (set over set, river quads), including twice at the same table within about 20 minutes. In those moments it absolutely feels like the WPT gods flipped a switch and decided your balance needed to disappear. Do I think the RNG is rigged? No. I think it’s just an extremely high-SD, high-variance game, and this format creates way more volatile situations than people are accustomed to. Humans are also really good at remembering the absurd beats while forgetting the countless standard outcomes. On top of that, there are a lot of well-respected people in the poker community who are associated with ClubWPT Gold. If something shady were actually going on, they’d have a tremendous amount to lose by attaching their names and reputations to it. Of everyone involved, the one that carries the most weight for me is Bart Hanson from Crush Live Poker. He’s built a reputation over many years by being straightforward and not chasing every sponsorship opportunity. If he’s willing to put that reputation behind ClubWPT Gold, that’s meaningful evidence to me. Could I be wrong? Sure. But based on my experience and understanding of variance, I don’t think the results people are posting require a rigged RNG to explain them.

by btcwinner88 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373321#post59373321)

Just wanted to chime in here and hopefully put some of this to bed.I think it’s important to understand how the 3-blind structure with antes, combined with games that are incredibly high VPIP/high PFR, affects variance. The standard deviation in this format is much higher than what a lot of people are used to.I mix volume on ClubWPT Gold with a few other sites and live poker. I... See full post

Well said. I see lots of players with TAG stats on the site that have adjusted poorly to this format, and they do lots of bad/exploitable things. Thus, they are gambling with a very small edge - if any. Variance hits these players the hardest. My guess is that these players are using the fact that they see more suck outs on this site (because they see way more showdowns) to rationalize why they aren’t having the results they used to in 100bb, no ante games.

Yea, I agree with this. It's similar to live poker, but when you're online playing 10x more hands while 4 tabling I'm sure the variance can be quite insane. A very reasonable response. Doylebrunsonfan believes theres something off and although his theories are terrible his at least polite about it. You have others in here giving condescending responses to genuine questions. Going around being disrespectful to ppl and then asking why they're triggered is some next level gaslighting/psychotic behavior.

by btcwinner88 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373321#post59373321)

Could I be wrong? Sure. But based on my experience and understanding of variance, I don’t think the results people are posting require a rigged RNG to explain them.

Another one who thinks he just understands variance better than the rest of us. Collection of long-term regs who all have a similar suspicion just simply do not understand variance and that explains it all. On top of that, there are a lot of well-respected people in the poker community who are associated with ClubWPT Gold. If something shady were actually going on, they’d have a tremendous amount to lose by attaching their names and reputations to it. Of everyone involved, the one that carries the most weight for me is Bart Hanson from Crush Live Poker. He’s built a reputation over many years by being straightforward and not chasing every sponsorship opportunity. If he’s willing to put that reputation behind ClubWPT Gold, that’s meaningful evidence to me.

This means nothing. Athletes, actors and investors put their names behind FTX and a few years later SBF is in prison for stealing at least 8 billion in crypto. Did any of them bear the consequences? No they just claim ignorance and move on, which is what Bart Hanson would do too. Not to mention Doug will put his name behind anything that provides a paycheck. by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373363#post59373363)

Rent free

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373807#post59373807)

Another one who thinks he just understands variance better than the rest of us. Collection of long-term regs who all have a similar suspicion just simply do not understand variance and that explains it all.This means nothing. Athletes, actors and investors put their names behind FTX and a few years later SBF is in prison for stealing at least 8 billion in crypto. Did any of the... See full post

I think you’re missing what I’m actually saying. I’m not claiming I “understand variance better than everyone else.” I’m saying standard deviation is not some fixed number across all poker games, and the structure of ClubWPT Gold is unusually high variance, which I hope we can both agree on. A normal 100bb 6-max/9-max NLHE game with two blinds and no ante might have an SD somewhere around 80–110 bb/100 depending on how the game plays. That number can increase substantially as VPIP/PFR rises, pots become more multiway, stacks go in wider, and more money is in the pot preflop. ClubWPT Gold has three blinds plus an ante. In a 1/2/4 game with a $1 ante from 8 players, there is $15 in the pot before anyone acts, or 3.75 big blinds. A normal 2/4 game starts with $6, or 1.5 BB. That extra dead money changes ranges and incentives dramatically. People fight for pots wider, call wider, 3-bet wider, and end up in much larger pots with weaker ranges. So an SD of 150+ bb/100 in these games would not surprise me at all, and particularly wild lineups could be higher. Compare that with someone assuming 80–90 bb/100 and you get completely different expectations for what a 20k, 50k, or even 100k hand downswing can look like. That doesn’t prove the RNG is clean. It also doesn’t prove it’s rigged. My point is that before using somebody’s ugly graph or anecdotal bad beats or some fish running up a massive stack as evidence of manipulation, you need a reasonable estimate of the variance of this specific game, not variance assumptions imported from conventional two-blind 100bb NLHE. And for the record, I can’t even give you a meaningful personal bb/100 because I’ve mixed NLHE/PLO and everything from 100NL to 800NL. I just know I’m up around $25k overall. So I’m not using my own results as “proof” of anything. I’m talking about the math of the structure which could provide a reasonable explanation for all of this.

I ran a 500 deposit up to 25k last year. First 7k at NL and then the next 18k when they started PLO. And now for the entire year, I just lose and lose and lose. 25k is now 2.5k. I really wish I could get the HHs and see how much under EV I am all in, because it has to be an absolutely insane number.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373807#post59373807)

Another one who thinks he just understands variance better than the rest of us. Collection of long-term regs who all have a similar suspicion just simply do not understand variance and that explains it all.This means nothing. Athletes, actors and investors put their names behind FTX and a few years later SBF is in prison for stealing at least 8 billion in crypto. Did any of the... See full post

Shut the **** up you stupid ****. Get better at the game and stop crying. Fkn pathetic loser. 5 posts a day, get a fkn life and go touch grass.

by btcwinner88 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373884#post59373884)

I think you’re missing what I’m actually saying. I’m not claiming I “understand variance better than everyone else.” I’m saying standard deviation is not some fixed number across all poker games, and the structure of ClubWPT Gold is unusually high variance, which I hope we can both agree on.A normal 100bb 6-max/9-max NLHE game with two blinds and no ante might have an SD somewh... See full post

Save your breath. Waste of time trying to convince him otherwise. He would rather cry on 2p2 all day than actually get good. He’s no diff than the guy who thinks crown winners have better RNG, LMAO. Jokes just write themselves.

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373951#post59373951)

Save your breath. Waste of time trying to convince him otherwise. He would rather cry on 2p2 all day than actually get good. He’s no diff than the guy who thinks crown winners have better RNG, LMAO. Jokes just write themselves.

I think the comment about crown winners was made jokingly.

by btcwinner88 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373884#post59373884)

I think you’re missing what I’m actually saying. I’m not claiming I “understand variance better than everyone else.” I’m saying standard deviation is not some fixed number across all poker games, and the structure of ClubWPT Gold is unusually high variance, which I hope we can both agree on.A normal 100bb 6-max/9-max NLHE game with two blinds... See full post

Ignoring the fact you're again explaining how variance in different formats work to me, none of this addresses the suspicions some of us have here about card distribution, action turns and rivers and the insane amount of royal flushes, straight flushes and quads I(and others) have made in relatively small samples. We could've put all of this to bed a long time ago if we could just download hand histories and analyze databases, we can't, that says a lot to me. I'm glad you didn't double down on the ''famous person puts his name behind it therefore it must be trustworthy''.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374029#post59374029)

the insane amount of royal flushes, straight flushes and quads I(and others) have made in relatively small samples.

Are you able to share these numbers?

by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374034#post59374034)

Are you able to share these numbers?

We can’t download hand histories. Considering you’re the “we’re playing with 47bb effective” guy I don’t expect this to go anywhere lol.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374066#post59374066)

We can’t download hand histories. Considering you’re the “we’re playing with 47bb effective” guy I don’t expect this to go anywhere lol.

I demonstrated it mathematically. Given you don’t understand it. I’m not surprised you think it is rigged.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374066#post59374066)

We can’t download hand histories. Considering you’re the “we’re playing with 47bb effective” guy I don’t expect this to go anywhere lol.

You should have a rough estimate of these and you know how many hands you played. It shouldn’t be that hard.

by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374073#post59374073)

I demonstrated it mathematically. Given you don’t understand it. I’m not surprised you think it is rigged.

Don't kid yourself little man. It's math a monkey could do. It's the fact you believed saying ''ehh we're playing 47bb eff that's why we see more showdowns' is somehow groundbreaking information. by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374074#post59374074)

You should have a rough estimate of these and you know how many hands you played. It shouldn’t be that hard.

Love how it took you all but 2 posts to prove to me this won't go anywhere. Edit: Wise decision little man.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374079#post59374079)

Don't kid yourself little man. It's math a monkey could do. It's the fact you believed saying ''ehh we're playing 47bb eff that's why we see more showdowns' is somehow groundbreaking information. Love how it took you all but 2 posts to prove to me this won't go anywhere.

I understand it’s simple math. You’re right this won’t go anywhere, but not for the reasons you think. It’s like discussing the U.S. Constitution with a Trump supporter. You hold on to your beliefs. Imma continue to print on the site, while being able to handle all of the ridiculous beats. And, I do see a lot of them. “Little man.” That is hilarious. [emoji1787] I’m done with you.

by Pablito m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374079#post59374079)

Don't kid yourself little man. It's math a monkey could do. It's the fact you believed saying ''ehh we're playing 47bb eff that's why we see more showdowns' is somehow groundbreaking information. Love how it took you all but 2 posts to prove to me this won't go anywhere. Edit: Wise decision little man.

One last thing. I just asked you a simple question, and you turned to insults. Showing such mental instability doesn’t strengthen your argument that it is rigged.

the convo is definitely interesting. but yeah there's no need to be douchebags to each other about it. would many people slap their name on a product to get paid? yes! would those people even necessarily even know if something was afoul? nope! would a company do nefarious things to maximize profit? especially considering it's an industry where they can be shut down any time? pretty sure! would a company avoid adding features (that poker software has had for decades) if they might provide ways to shed light on some sketchyness? hmmm. we all know that we remember the bad beats and forget the standard /expected wins. sometimes it's just near impossible to explain what happens, 47 BBs or not. i just had a short stack sitting with $45 at $0.50/1/2 raise to $6 utg. i flat AJ on the CO, JTx two clubs. he bets, i raise, he calls. turn club, he puts in his few remaining bucks and i lose to his A4 flush. like... okay sure. it happens. but the UTG shorty raising then binking against a dominating hand, it feels so standard it's comical. maybe some of you regs experience those wins regularly? cuz i don't haha. you know how many times my A5s, 78s, 45s, T9s brick the flop? most times, like realistic odds would align with. but since we have no analyzing, we really have no idea. then he leaves the table immediately, which is another incredibly fishy thing - the ol' double up off a reg then bounce. so what some regs feel weirdly about is the seemingly constant occurrence of these beats, runouts. insane plays paying off. let's face it, with how bad many of the recs seem to be, that means the top players at 200NL and up should just be PRINTING money right? i wonder how many are actually. edit: case in point, i just raise T9 of spades on btn, SB 3bets big, i call it in pos. flop 733 clubs and a heart. very solid. yes i know it's just one hand, but somehow some players can just smash boards at will

I have been a winning online tournament poker player for about 20 years now. Played professionally for about 7 years. This will be the first post if it's kind I have ever made. I am beginning to feel suspicious of the rng on this site. I have probably only played 600-1000 tournaments on Club WPT Gold, but the way things have gone have felt off. I am probably up about $8,000 but most of that came in the first couple weeks of play. When I get to the final 10 or 20, I have been losing 80/20's and 70/30's at an extraordinary rate. I wish they had hand histories so I could look at some numbers.... It may be just variance and if I had to bet that is where I would put my money, but I want to raise a flag and say I am suspicious of a poker website for the first time ever. The ridiculously bad play keeps me coming back, but man it has been a frustrating ride so far.

by Vinyll m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373090#post59373090)

So how do they become crown winners if the rig only starts working when you win one? Do I need to email doug?

Are you really this soft in the brain? Your parents must be ashamed. My guess is the crown winners are a mix of decent players, wptclubgold plants and total spewtard whales who have been marked as too valuable to allow to go broke.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374142#post59374142)

the convo is definitely interesting. but yeah there's no need to be douchebags to each other about it.would many people slap their name on a product to get paid? yes!would those people even necessarily even know if something was afoul? nope!would a company do nefarious things to maximize profit? especially considering it's an industry where they can be shut down any time? prett... See full post

probably should start with flatting AJo in the CO vs a 3x raise utg vs. a short stack. That's just bad poker.

by AKSharky m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374613#post59374613)

I have been a winning online tournament poker player for about 20 years now. Played professionally for about 7 years. This will be the first post if it's kind I have ever made. I am beginning to feel suspicious of the randomness on this site. I have probably only played 600-1000 tournaments on Club WPT Gold, but the way things have gone have felt off. I am probably up abo... See full post

I decided to keep playing on this site even though I'm positive there are cheaters/super users at PLO. Even though I find there to be way more whales at PLO, the variance is beyond insane and nobody will ever reach a "long run" at it 4 tabling. I switched back to Hold'em which I know I'm very good at, have way less variance because I can actually win a lot of money without showdowns and there's still tons and tons of mistakes being made by "regs". I'm astonished at how almost nobody has any clue or is studied at the format Gold has presented in cash (3 blinds, antes). I have dabbled in the $33 huge guarantee tourney and some random freerolls i get gifted or tourney tickets. Literally at least 0/25. Not one cash. I understand tournament variance and it's what ever as it's a very low investment for me, but the variance on the site is definitely insane. I don't see how anyone could grind tournies on it or PLO. But to each their own.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374688#post59374688)

Are you really this soft in the brain? Your parents must be ashamed. My guess is the crown winners are a mix of decent players, wptclubgold plants and total spewtard whales who have been marked as too valuable to allow to go broke.

So whales can be marked to have the rig in their favor without being a crown winner? Also do the decent players who become crown winners fairly get blessed with the rig as well? Just want to make sure im understanding the totally not delusional rig your experiencing.

by Vinyll m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374749#post59374749)

So whales can be marked to have the rig in their favor without being a crown winner? Also do the decent players who become crown winners fairly get blessed with the rig as well? Just want to make sure im understanding the totally not delusional rig your experiencing.

Lol. This thread is sooooo entertaining.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374688#post59374688)

Are you really this soft in the brain? Your parents must be ashamed. My guess is the crown winners are a mix of decent players, wptclubgold plants and total spewtard whales who have been marked as too valuable to allow to go broke.

Can you do better than a guess perhaps? Also, if they value decent players so much why not become one and be a double winner?🙂

by AKSharky m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374613#post59374613)

I have been a winning online tournament poker player for about 20 years now. Played professionally for about 7 years. This will be the first post if it's kind I have ever made. I am beginning to feel suspicious of the randomness on this site. I have probably only played 600-1000 tournaments on Club WPT Gold, but the way things have gone have felt off. I am probably up abo... See full post

You’re not the only one questioning the randomness. A lot of long time regs, myself included, have said the same thing you just did.

by AKSharky m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374650#post59374650)

I have been a winning online tournament poker player for about 20 years now. Played professionally for about 7 years. This will be the first post if it's kind I have ever made.I am beginning to feel suspicious of the rng on this site. I have probably only played 600-1000 tournaments on Club WPT Gold, but the way things have gone have felt off. I am probably up about $8,000 but ... See full post

There is a thread from years ago where top players estimate that a 20% ROI MTT player has a 20% chance of losing over 5k tournaments. If that is true, your sample size is way too small to draw any conclusions. Link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/onl... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/online-no-limit-holdem-cash/official-march-msnl-thread-everyonebutoprunbad-thread-989478/index1.html)

by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374975#post59374975)

There is a thread from years ago where top players estimate that a 20% ROI MTT player has a 20% chance of losing over 5k tournaments. If that is true, your sample size is way too small to draw any conclusions. Link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/onl... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/online-no-limit-holdem-cash/official-march-msnl-thread-everyonebutoprunbad-thread-989478/index1.html)

Sounds like a site could easily make certain players win or lose over a realistic sample without ever raising suspicions from a statistical standpoint.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374776#post59374776)

Can you do better than a guess perhaps? Also, if they value decent players so much why not become one and be a double winner?🙂

You cannot get hand histories from clubwptgold idk how many times you need to hear this. I won so much money from clubwptgold they are backing me off like a sports book would. I still play from time to time but I’ve already moved onto other sites. Part of being a successful poker player is knowing when to walk. Still don’t know what you’re doing in this thread as you’ve already admitted you’re some shitreg who can’t even play on clubwptgold.

by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373980#post59373980)

I think the comment about crown winners was made jokingly.

lol, you sure about that?

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374983#post59374983)

Sounds like a site could easily make certain players win or lose over a realistic sample without ever raising suspicions from a statistical standpoint.

There is a big difference between “could” and “does.”

by OlaPistola7 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374988#post59374988)

lol, you sure about that?

No. But, if the person who made it plays under the same handle, he is a solid player who likely has a very good win rate.

half of the biggest donators in the MTT streets won shiny crown badges but there’s nothing sus about that

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375002#post59375002)

half of the biggest donators in the MTT streets won shiny crown badges but there’s nothing sus about that

I’m sure your “half” number is very well researched. [emoji849] A handful of really bad players sun running over the course of a thousand or so hands is evidence of nothing.

of the people who signed up under my code who I know as tough winning poker players all are winning (some ridiculously big). of the people who signed up under my code who I know as losing/rec poker players most are losing or quit. I hope this helps.

by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375013#post59375013)

I’m sure your “half” number is very well researched. [emoji849] A handful of really bad players sun running over the course of a thousand or so hands is evidence of nothing.

There’s no way to get evidence of anything in regards to clubwptgold but they are gradually getting shut down in the US. I don’t really care what you think. I already won an exorbitant amount of money from this site and left.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375115#post59375115)

There’s no way to get evidence of anything in regards to clubwptgold but they are gradually getting shut down in the US. I don’t really care what you think. I already won an exorbitant amount of money from this site and left.

Okay. Good luck to you.

by limon m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375041#post59375041)

of the people who signed up under my code who I know as tough winning poker players all are winning (some ridiculously big). of the people who signed up under my code who I know as losing/rec poker players most are losing or quit. I hope this helps.

nice to know if you sign up under someone's code that they have full access to your profit and loss statements attached to your name another reason not to play on this site ty

by wsopcrusher69 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375174#post59375174)

nice to know if you sign up under someone's code that they have full access to your profit and loss statements attached to your name another reason not to play on this site ty

I don't have that. I said people who I knew before they signed up and what I hear from them, that I have no reason not to believe. reading comprehension FTW.

by limon m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375225#post59375225)

I don't have that. I said people who I knew before they signed up and what I hear from them, that I have no reason not to believe. reading comprehension FTW.

nice backtrack senior citizen

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374724#post59374724)

probably should start with flatting AJo in the CO vs a 3x raise utg vs. a short stack. That's just bad poker.

maybe that play isn't optimal, but i don't think it was a horrible play, considering if he's opening that UTG w./ a short stack, he's simply not folding it unless maybe to a jam, so the end resuykt will always be the same with villian taking that pot. admittedly i don't throw every hand thru a solver, but i generally am not a dumbass. also solvers don't account for table flow or player tendencies. but regardless, this is just misdirection from the "HOW OFTEN CAN THE DOMINATED HANDS MIRACLE A WIN?" question. we have this gem from tonight: a player w/ 31k hands, playing 32/13, opens to $15 in the HJ. yes, he opens 7.5x. is that a normal open from someone only raising 13%? i have kings in the BB, so it's basically a guaranteed loss. but i 3! anyway to $40, the HJ calls. FLOP 36T two hearts, i have the Kd/Kh in hand. i cbet $23, he just rips all in for $160. i call, he has 79 of hearts for a combo draw, because playing that hand for 20x preflop must print money, and of course it auto-flops bingo right? TURN brick, RIVER hits his flush of course. so like... maybe the RNG is legit. but do some players know the runouts? are some players actually just bots with that info? on a $200 table if you're putting in $40 pre w/ 79s... with that specific 79 suited holding, you will flop a combo draw 2% of the time. and against my specific holding, villian's hand has ~40% equity on the flop. the math is what it is right? so you're telling me

• fish opens 7.5x w/ marginal holding
• then calls a 3 bet putting 20% of his stack in with 9 high
• then hits the 2% miracle flop w/ outs
• then wins the slight underdog all in AND THEN, FISH NEVER MAKES ANOTHER PLAY LIKE THAT FOR THE NEXT TWO HOURS?!? that is probably the most suspicious sign. some players are certainly maniacs where they win 6 buyins in an hours then lose it just as fast. but what is the explanation for a super erratic play like this one, that is not repeated at all? every time the point of "we remember the bad beats but not all the wins..." is made, i think about it and about how it absolutely is true. but then i i sit and think about how much i observe the player tendencies and how sketchy they are. as regs that's what we do. we'd have to be complete dumbasses to not realize it's fishy right? if we had hand histories, we could actually compare and see how often this nonsense happens. looking for the frequency of wacky raises sizes or the amount of subpar holdings that pull miracles. maybe we are wrong and it's in the realm of normalcy. i just double checked, i am up about $21k on wptgold this year. it feels like it should be 30 or 40 though. interestingly enough, polk made a post tonight stating that he went on a $700k downswing on wptgold playing mostly 25/50 PLO, but he has made $300k of it back... so according to one commenter being down $700k is about 140 buyins? anything is possible, but that just seems incredibly unlikely. also there is no chart or history to prove anything so ... it's just so effin weird.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374986#post59374986)

You cannot get hand histories from clubwptgold

I know. Funnily enough you've made several accusations towards other sites that they are rigged as well on this very forum. Sites which definitely do provide have hand histories. You also failed to show anything for the claims that those sites are rigged even though they do have hand histories. You are just a big no-show. by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59374986#post59374986)

Still don’t know what you’re doing in this thread as you’ve already admitted you’re some shitreg who can’t even play on clubwptgold.

Unfortunately not because it sounds like its full of fish And im very sure I play a lot higher than you and perform better. But if you disagree maybe we can do a challenge on a site we both have access to? maybe 25k hands of 1knl HU or something, what do you say? But we might have to take your arrogance and your "won so much money" stataments with a grain of salt considering you believe

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59331648#post59331648)

“Decent” regs are making the same money as fast food workers.

So when you say... by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375115#post59375115)

I already won an exorbitant amount of money from this site and left.

Did you make the same exorbitant amount fast food workers make?? 🙂

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375309#post59375309)

I know. Funnily enough you've made several accusations towards other sites that they are rigged as well on this very forum.Sites which definitely do provide have hand histories.You also failed to show anything for the claims that those sites are rigged even though they do have hand histories. You are just a big no-show.Unfortunately not because it sounds like its full of fishAn... See full post

Why would I play 25k hands of 1kNL HU? I don’t play heads up regularly and exactly what would I gain? I’ve already moved to playing Coinpoker, where to no surprise I’m crushing lol. Another tip for you, drop the ego, it does nothing to further your dismal poker career. Funny thing is I drop in here once every few weeks and the one constant is this slugant guy arguing with anyone who will pay him attention when he can’t even play on this site. Really can’t imagine how sad your day to day life must be bro.

You realize you have the most posts in this thread out of anyone right? And if posting here is only allowed by active players you shouldnt be post either since you left the site. And what do you have to gain from playing me? It should be so obvious right, I am shitreg with a dismal poker career according to you... So locking in 25k hands at 1knl would be very profitable for you right? Especially considering you claim a decent poker reg makes the same as a fastfood worker 😉

Here’s a hand that with a teachable moment. Villain is 23/10. I have played hundreds of hands with him, and he plays exactly like the weak reg that his stats indicate. He opens button. I 3bet KQo from the blinds. He calls. Flop comes JT7. I bet enough to commit myself. He shoves. I call. He shows 75o. I miss. He wins. I think a lot of people in this thread would say, “see, I told you it’s rigged.” However, this was the only instance in hundreds of hands vs him where something like this happened. If he had some special knowledge, wouldn’t we see this more often? The more plausible explanation is that he was tired of my 3betting and decided to “take a stand.” In other words, he was tilted. When he flopped bottom pair, his tilt got the best of him and he made a terrible shove.

Similar stats alone don’t prove anything, but a bunch of new accounts playing the same style, at the same times and often at the same tables is def worth checking. The lack of downloadable HHs is the bigger issue imo. Players can spot something weird, but they can’t really collect enough evidence to show a pattern. Also bots and RNG are two different things. The deck can be completely fair while the games still have a bot/collusion problem. Has anyone actually reported these accounts to WPT and got a proper reply?

did he make a terrible shove though? i mean the equity on the flop had to be about even right? he just wanted to gamble, and figured you for AK/AQ/KQ, which is fair bc that's a big portion of your range there. prolly not cbetting JJJ or TTT big. that situation as you explained it - him likely being fed up with your 3 betting after playing hundreds of hands together - then spiking a pair and going with it - doesn't wreak at all of being rigged. now if you had aces or kings and he hit his 5 outer, repeatedly, throughout a session... your situation is also way different than a random newbie sitting down and jumping out of line one single time to hit a miracle in a long session of play. what are your thoughts on the J4o hand? was it cheating or just bad play? by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59376805#post59376805)

Here’s a hand that with a teachable moment.Villain is 23/10. I have played hundreds of hands with him, and he plays exactly like the weak reg that his stats indicate. He opens button. I 3bet KQo from the blinds. He calls. Flop comes JT7. I bet enough to commit myself. He shoves. I call. He shows 75o. I miss. He wins.I think a lot of people in this thread would say, “see, I told... See full post

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59377064#post59377064)

did he make a terrible shove though? i mean the equity on the flop had to be about even right? he just wanted to gamble, and figured you for AK/AQ/KQ, which is fair bc that's a big portion of your range there. prolly not cbetting JJJ or TTT big.that situation as you explained it - him likely being fed up with your 3 betting after playing hundreds of hands together - then spikin... See full post

You’re joking, right? He can’t see my cards (I never have AK or AQ for that size btw). Unless, that is your theory? If that were true though, he would have called or rebluffed me the several times I have gotten him to fold when I have 7, 6, or 5 high. You do realize how terrible it is to 4x the button and then call a 5x 3bet with 75o, right? As for the J4o hand. I think you mean the hand where a tight player limped J2o UTG. As I said before, I think it was a misclick. Luckily for him, he hit when it happened.

Rng is dust. What's your screename Zobags?

by AndyR m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59376833#post59376833)

Similar stats alone don’t prove anything, but a bunch of new accounts playing the same style, at the same times and often at the same tables is def worth checking.The lack of downloadable HHs is the bigger issue imo. Players can spot something weird, but they can’t really collect enough evidence to show a pattern.Also bots and RNG are two different things. The deck ... See full post

Facts across all stakes even in the smallest games on the site ��

26/17, 32/18, 30/20 ish profiles are most suspicious to me. A lot of overlap across stakes. The 17/13 guys aren't bots. They are too tight. Even 22/18, 28/20, 26/20 solid stats I don't see much overlap across stakes.

Also it should be noted that most of the botting is done at the full ring tables which is where the most fish gravitate towards. Most of the small stakes regs I've encountered that play short handed seem like legit players. I get a lot of action from fish because they know I'm real. What about the unsuspecting fish that sit in an 8 max game? Do the site ambassadors not care about botting? Too hard to control? Or rake is rake either way.

by AndyR m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59376833#post59376833)

Also bots and RNG are two different things. The deck can be completely fair while the games still have a bot/collusion problem.

This.

by Basketballcoach22 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59377263#post59377263)

Rng is dust. What's your screename Zobags?

After sharing things like this in thread, “I never have AK or AQ for that size btw,” I’m not willing to post my screenname.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375608#post59375608)

You realize you have the most posts in this thread out of anyone right?And if posting here is only allowed by active players you shouldnt be post either since you left the site.And what do you have to gain from playing me? It should be so obvious right, I am shitreg with a dismal poker career according to you... So locking in 25k hands at 1knl would be very profitable for you r... See full post

Buddy I blasted my ego away years ago so you’re not going to goad me into a heads up reg battle. Come play mtts on Coin if you choose and I’ll take your money. And as for Clubwptgold we can compare winnings on the site if you want. Go ahead and produce your 1099s.

Why does it require an ego to play a shitreg with a dimsal poker career HU? Do I need to explain why it would be hard to take all of someones money at mtts? And at this rate is will take several lifetimes

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59331648#post59331648)

“Decent” regs are making the same money as fast food workers.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378398#post59378398)

Why does it require an ego to play a shitreg with a dimsal poker career HU? Do I need to explain why it would be hard to take all of someones money at mtts? And at this rate is will take several lifetimes

Why would I play a format I don’t regularly play against someone who for all I know could be using RTA while we play? When I play cash I’m usually playing live and whatever the biggest game in the room is. You’re quite literally a fly buzzing around a pile of my ****. I’m still waiting for you to explain why you spend so much time in a thread relating to a poker site you have never and can’t even play on. Your day to day life must be very fulfilling.

Oh now its the RTA scare, for all you know your mtt opponents could be using RTA as well. The time I spend ITT is a couple of minutes a week, or do you spend hours making your posts? It sure sound seem that way. But why do you have the most posts out of anyone in a thread about a site you have already left a while ago but others with an interest in poker cannot join at all? For someone who is just a fly you seem too preoccupied with what I have to say.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378640#post59378640)

The time I spend ITT is a couple of minutes a week.

Total Posts Total Posts: 9,760 Posts Per Day: 1.67 lmao

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378640#post59378640)

Oh now its the RTA scare, for all you know your mtt opponents could be using RTA as well.The time I spend ITT is a couple of minutes a week, or do you spend hours making your posts? It sure sound seem that way. But why do you have the most posts out of anyone in a thread about a site you have already left a while ago but others with an interest in poker cannot join at all? For ... See full post

Im sure some of my opponents are using RTA, that’s just an inevitability of playing online. If someone has a setup where they can analyze complex ICM formations on the fly then I’m sure I’m being cheated for some amount. But seeing as how you can see people’s stats on Coin, it’s pretty easy to tell a lot of these players are trash and for sure not using RTA.

to be fair, we can see some "stats" on WPTGold as well, clearly indicating many as trash. BUT that doesn't seem to effect how they can go limp call oop, chk call flop oop, then open jam the turn with a naked gutter and get there at a ridiculous rate, often beating holdings like sets and overpairs. 😡 myself and some others have been accumulating vids, screenshots, and recaps of hands as best we can to show the ridiculousness. it's just very tough to put together without full histories. but some of the plays just WREAK of it being a bot with knowledge of the cards/ also, not saying this is true, but IF IT WERE site produced bots playing, there could effectively just be an endless amount of new "players" created on the fly. making it even more impossible to detect any kind of patterns. but some will say there is no way that it's sketchy.. i mean putting in half the available money with garbage high in situations like this either has to be really -ev or really genius. and my lord if plays like this are being made regularly, then villians like this should be broke in hours. (this hero isn't me, but we've both run into this nonstop.) it's like persson said in the aftermath of the J4 hand, "that's not a poker play."

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tiBWYrZXXd8 YouTube Poker Hand: 88 loses to trash (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tiBWYrZXXd8)

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378888#post59378888)

Im sure some of my opponents are using RTA, that’s just an inevitability of playing online. If someone has a setup where they can analyze complex ICM formations on the fly then I’m sure I’m being cheated for some amount. But seeing as how you can see people’s stats on Coin, it’s pretty easy to tell a lot of these players are trash and for sure not using RTA.

by wsopcrusher69 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378743#post59378743)

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378640#post59378640)

The time I spend ITT is a couple of minutes a week

Total Posts Total Posts: 9,760 Posts Per Day: 1.67 lmao

And I have 32 posts ITT since it started beginning this year You think that takes more than a couple of minutes a week? Or do you think having 1.67 post a day is a full time job? Calling yourself wsopcrusher69 lmao

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378909#post59378909)

to be fair, we can see some "stats" on WPTGold as well, clearly indicating many as trash.BUT that doesn't seem to effect how they can go limp call oop, chk call flop oop, then open jam the turn with a naked gutter and get there at a ridiculous rate, often beating holdings like sets and overpairs. 😡myself and some others have been accumulating vids, screenshots, and recaps of han... See full post

Yeah I don’t play much cash but have some friends with 100s of thousands of hands of cash on there. They share my opinions while being massive net winners on the site over the past ~2 years. In tournaments the stats are only tracked within individual events and afaik there’s no lifetime stats for mtts. Imagine having 32 posts in a thread dedicated to a poker site you’ve never played on. I’m really struggling to see what Slugant could possibly offer to the discussion here but it seems like he’s felt the need to make 32 contributions. And he has more posts in the regular Clubwptgold thread lol. For what purpose? No one really knows.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378950#post59378950)

And he has more posts in the regular Clubwptgold thread lol. For what purpose? No one really knows.

Can you please quote 1 post from me from the regular clubwptgold thread? Because I have exactly zero posts in the regular clubwptgold thread. You know you can check those stats easily right? So why make it up? For what purpose? No one really knows. And people can easily check too that this is the umpteenth site you say is definitely rigged. And even though those other sites do provide hand histories you never showed anything there as well. Im struggling to see what that offers to the discussion.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59378950#post59378950)

Yeah I don’t play much cash but have some friends with 100s of thousands of hands of cash on there. They share my opinions while being massive net winners on the site over the past ~2 years. In tournaments the stats are only tracked within individual events and afaik there’s no lifetime stats for mtts.Imagine having 32 posts in a thread dedicated to a poker site you’ve never ... See full post

I don't really see what this hand proves. I do think there are some bots or cheaters on the site but sometimes you're going to see these random plays sometimes. And strategy wise, the 3bets too small and cbet is not really necessary against a player like this/pointless.

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59379303#post59379303)

I don't really see what this hand proves. I do think there are some bots or cheaters on the site but sometimes you're going to see these random plays sometimes. And strategy wise, the 3bets too small and cbet is not really necessary against a player like this/pointless.

I have no idea. I didn’t watch the video but I’ve personally seen an enormous amount of unnatural play on clubwptgold. And Slugant, I made a mistake you have loads of posts in the poker is rigged thread. So you spend a significant amount of your time and effort online defending poker sites. I hope they are at least paying you bud. Question still stands how and why you stumbled in here and decided to become a regular poster.

Well duh, all the online poker sites pay me huge amounts of money to defend them Like the time I said GG has a sketchy PVI system that punishes good players, very high and preflop rake, terrible software, history of security issues and showing a graph without rake is crooked as well among other criticisms. And pretty much the same goes for current CP. We can rest easy about the RNG being fair (not rigged) if its passed rigorous testing but there a lot of other issues to worry about which I also point out regularly. For the life of me, I cant phantom why they are paying me to do so.

might want to check out the gold discussion thread. literal proof of a cheater and someone compensated for it. so big **** you to you guys saying "lol variance" "lol you don't understand PLO LOLOLOL". gtfo

by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59385196#post59385196)

might want to check out the gold discussion thread. literal proof of a cheater and someone compensated for it. so big **** you to you guys saying "lol variance" "lol you don't understand PLO LOLOLOL". gtfo

I dont think anyone has ever denied that people can cheat? Theres a big difference between someone cheating with rta and the rng being rigged by the site.

recap from saturdaydown about 8 buyins in under an hr. funny how every big lost hand is to a villain playing 50%+ of hands, 50/23, 51/18, 50/37, even a 73/2! i've had exactly 3 straight months of being virtually dead even. it's not that i'm being decimated; it's like every time i get a day or two winning a few buyins, i immediately get smacked in the face with fish hitting EVERYTHING. like, cold calling 3bets w/ KJo OOP, putting in 1/3 of a stack w/ A7s, then flopping the flush draw and getting there. the coolers are insane. everything ends in a cooler. we could be playing 3-handed, flopped nut flush loses to runner runner boat. or it can be full ring, flopped top pair good kick hits runners for a 2nd nut flush but loses to a boat. players are floating with nothing, check raising OOP with nothing, and getting there. blind vs blind flopped 2 pair vs top pair decent kicker. all in preflop KK vs AKs with the runner runner flush coming thru for big slick, villains limping Q3o and winning regularly, villians flatting single raises w/ AA and KK, not protecting the hands, and holding up against multiple players and monster draws, triple barrel bluffing seemingly at the perfect times - just like they can see the cards. all of these beats happen in ONE SESSION. almost routinely. the AMOUNT of time that people are just SMASHING boards at exactly the right spot is insane. recap from wednesdaytonight, in the last hour alone, i have had the pleasure of:

• QQ < JTo aipf
• gutshot on riv
• QQ < KK aipf losing to a spaz playing 50/40
• JJJ < QTo top set losing to open ender getting all the money in on the turn for a 300 BB pot. guy called a huge 3 bet w/ QTo, then called a 3x chk raise on the flop, then just jammed over my pot size turn bet. because... he knew it was getting there?
• JJ < 89s villain cold called a 3 bet for half his stack, flop is 567 obv
• gutshot on riv
• ATs < A8o, playing HU after a table broke. he gets trips obv 54% vpip, bc u hit it all if u play it all!
• AA < flopped boat guy playing 52% VPIP w/ 2k hands played
• 66 < QQ guy playing 41/32, i raised btn he 3bets on the BB, i call, flop 457. of course it is... we get it all in, brick brick obv
• AKs < ATo. he hits a gutter on the riv obv when there are 2 missed flush draws and he comes out betting pot. bc... that's the standard runout
• turned nut straight < turned 2nd nut flush. i folded to a raise and lost what was prolly the min. so that's 7 or so rough beats, along with a bunch of standard cooler setups. in my last hour of play. after i grinded out being up a couple buyins in the session. i was not slow playing at any point when i had the better hand (except that last AKs hand). in fact, every person i lost one of these pots to either had < 2,000 hands, or 60%+ VPIP. most of the players had < 500 hands. these aren't bad beat stories, these are nonstop anomalies. variance is surely something, but how can it possibly be this bad? getting it all in w/ 10-20% equity surely has to pan out badly in the long run right? does no one else see this kind of crap, day after day, nonstop, for months? someone prove that these are actual legitimate players and not just an endless supply of site bots? the player who beat my JJJ with the QT hitting the straight on the river has BARELY PLAYED ANY HANDS in 45 minutes since then. apparently that was the one hand he was gonna spaz with. that's it, only that one. other than that perfect ABC poker, protecting that stack. it just can't be legit.

I have played about 100k hands of PLO on Club WPT this year. Mostly at 10PLO, I've managed to win around $15 an hour playing those stakes. I don't claim to be even good at the game, the play there is really close to as bad as it gets. Even with such a high hourly, I swear on my ma, the amount of luck can drive people insane. People putting in stacks with random hands, and seemingly can't lose. Calling off with no pair and no draw, only to back into the nuts. Oh jesus, there's someone with 20 buyins worth of money and he's played 300 hands.

If you’re a winning plauer you’re likely to win money on Clubwptgold but it’s obviously rigged to allow fish to stay in the game longer for the sake of liquidity. Anyone denying this either doesn’t play on the site or has a low IQ.

PLO is a high-variance game by definition.

by MeFishcake m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59392615#post59392615)

I have played about 100k hands of PLO on Club WPT this year. Mostly at 10PLO, I've managed to win around $15 an hour playing those stakes. I don't claim to be even good at the game, the play there is really close to as bad as it gets. Even with such a high hourly, I swear on my ma, the amount of luck can drive people insane. People putting in stacks with random hands, and s... See full post

this is exactly the thing, i'm profitable, right around ~$25 / hr. (100 NL and a little bit of 200 NL) but the insanity that goes on is indescribable. it's crazy to even have to log this stuff, but once you do and you look back through it, it's painful and sketchy. i absolutely make a couple mistakes, but not ones that should leave me down 10 buyins. maybe 2-3 buyins of mistakes, but 7-8 of booshit.

let''s see, what do we have for friday 9/4) the guy w/ 2k hands played total limp calling T6s oop for 4x the blind, getting runner runner flush calling incrementing bets on flop and turn the 4k hand guy raising A5o on btn, calling a huge 3 bet, then on an 22A flop where he gets incrementally bet into each street, the river is a 5 to beat AK the guy limp calling a 4x raise oop, leading flop w/ mid pair, calling a big raise, then calling a turn overbet, and then... right before facing what should be a solid river jam (bluff in this case), he manages to river two pair w/ 73o another 2k hand guy raising A8o on CO, calling a huge 3 bet, then flopping 2 pair vs the SB's KQs and the BBs TT on an AJ8 flop. how often does one flop two pair in that situation? the obligatory AK < QQ flip loss on an AQx flop in a 4bet pot for 200bb pot the obligatory TT < AK flop loss on the river to a 40% vpip player for 200 bb pot won a flop TT vs AK for 150 bb pot the guy playing 88% vpip who builds up a 5 buy in stack within a half hour. he has less than 2k hands played. the standard AQ trips on the board losing to nut flush. his A3s > my AQo. TT on btn < QQ on straddle AIPF on the guy's 1st hand at the table how about raising 77, calling a regs 3 bet that also got called by a fish, getting a 78A two heart flop. we chk to the reg 3 bettor, he bets BIG, fish calls. i min raise. reg... thinks and jams. i call it off, he has AKoff. no hearts. turn A. river A. lol the routine 77 losing to J7s, JJ losing to KJo, etc. i did flop top two w/ JTs vs a 3betting KK from the blind, and managed to get paid by it.

and this afternoon (saturday 9.5). why is almost every big hand loss a cooler? can i be getting away from these? i watch other people stacking players with 99 on a 24J64 board when the villain has T8off. but i don't seem to run into those situations. QTs < A5s in a multi-way, 3bet pot. flopped flush draw, it gets there on the riv where we get it all in KTs < QQ on a Txx flush draw board where we get it all in on the turn and he holds 89s < T9s UTG raises i defent BB, flop 996 two hears, i chk raise 3x he call,s, turn T, i bet 2/3 pot he calls, river brick, i bet 3/4 pot... he jams. sigh. i call. obviously. 55 < QTs, single raise pot me defending BB, flop 58T, i chk call, turn Q, i chk, he bets, i raise, he jams, he has top 2, cooler... river Q, wat? didn't this just happen yesterday? "The odds of flopping a set on a dry board and losing to a larger runner-runner full house are extremely low, roughly 0.1% to 0.2% (about 500-to-1 to 1,000-to-1 against) for a specific opponent holding random or overcard cards that need to pair up twice." "If you want to know the absolute odds of this entire sequence happening starting from before the cards are even dealt, you have to multiply the two numbers together:Step 1: The exact "Set vs. Top Pair + Overcard" flop happens (1.11% chance).Step 2: The opponent hits a runner-runner bigger boat on the turn and river (~0.15% chance).Multiplying these together ((0.0111 \times 0.0015)) equals roughly 0.00166%. This means starting from preflop, this exact trap-and-suckout sequence will only happen about 1 in 60,000 hands." i had it happen twice in 4,000 hands. AKs < 44, guy w/ 3,000 hands played playing 59/22 flops a set in a massive 3 bet pot. obviousy. we donate. AJs < 46s, same guy limps EP, calls a raise, then gets runner runner flush to beat my mid pair after i raised big on the turn. lost the min, i think AKs = AK alpf, he almost sucked out a flush but thankfully the riv missed AJo > 37s for a half stack, he limp called a preflop raise, then chk called the AA4 one spade flop, turning a 6s getting it all in but bricking the river QQ > QJo in a massive 4 bet 3-way pot. J high flop, im just lucky the other guy didnt have AA or KK AJs > KTo, he 3 bet big from the straddle, we called and flopped a flush on a T high board, he triple barreled A5h > 56d, i raise btn, he 3bets from the blind, i call, flop 752 two clubs he bets big i call, turn 8, he jams. it seems a bit sus, altho he could have 99 TT or JJ, i make a call that ends up being good AND holding KK > AJo aipf for a 120bb pot AK < 97c, LP raises, i 3bet AK o big on the SB, BB and original raiser calls. FL QT8 two diamonds, i cbet small the BB calls, TU brick, chk chk, river Jd, i bet 1/3 pot.. BB jams. sign. i think this has to be a call. i do so, he has the flush on the miracle perfect river card. like... how? how are you playing 97 suited for $30 pre and then getting there in the perfect way? people should be so broke it;s gross. KK < AQo, CO raises, i 3b from the SB, he 4 bets small. i just call. flop 3 clubs, i dont have one. i chk, he bets 1/4 pot. i jam big. he basically instacalls, and has the A of clubs hitting a club on the riv. AK < KK aipf QQ < AA alpf 120bb pot QQ < KK aipf, both flopped sets but we lose 44 > A8s, single raise pot, flop 458, i chk raise small villain calls, turn 8 we get it in and hold QTh < QJh, blind v blind flop 8h9h X, we get it all in, i turn Q i mean that's 3 pretty bad coolers, i think?, going the other direction. none going my way. it feels ridiculous to log this stuff, but it's unbelievable unless it's reviewable in some way. this is the way for 3 months straight. tons of smaller hands where i win 30 bbs vs some nonsense. but tons of other smaller hands where A5o defends a blind vs a raise and call in front of him and flops a gutter and immediately gets there. usually i lose the min, but KK doesn't seem to be holding up in spots like that. so it's like, grind grind grind, but then the big spots come and magically we can just not hold on them. 83h < 43d. btn raises, same player that had the QTs, i defend bb. flop Q74 two hearts giving me the flush draw. i chk, he bets 1/3 pot, i raise 3.5x, he calls. turn 8 gives me 2nd paid. i chk, he chks back. river brick 4. i chk, he bets big. i debate on a bluff jam but might as well just call (spoiler, phew) in case he's bluffing. i call. he hits the magic trips obv. wat? villain is 4.5% to win with the river to come. i guess i should win the next 19 spots like this? lol AA < AQc, co raises, i 3bet on btn, he calls. hu flop T75 two clubs. he leads, i raise, he calls, turn J, he leads again. i just jam. he thinks about it and calls, river K. lol. i mean, i guess he's 27% to win going to the river. whatever. AA losing to AQ HU to the flop is just the norm. ATo < A9c mp raises i call on btn, blind calls. flop T58 two clubs, blind chks, mp chks, i bet 50%, blind xraises 4x! i call. turn low club. he bets $50. i sigh call. river brick he bets $100m, i fold to nuts bc he can get there AQc < 67c flopped flush draw, 246 board, blind leads out, i raise in pos, he just rips for 75 bbs, i call it off, i can't get there AK < K8h btn "reg" raises, i 3bet big on SB, he small 4 bets. i call. flop A8T, i chk, he bets, i call. turn pairs the 8. i bet small, he calls. RI brick, i bet out big. he jams. sigh. i call. how do they get there? how are there so many insane coolers in HU 4-bet pots? when one hand "should" be dominated? this guy plays 23/18. so K8s is a 4 bet on the btn? and it finds a way to get there againstt AK obviously? like WHAT THE **** on other tables, same stuff happens. player with < 1,000 hands flopping a set to beat a reg's top 2. the brand newbie to the site has a $1k stack at 200 nl of course. like, i know this stuff can happen. but REALLY??? really??? 15 big pot losses, 7 big pot wins

how about sunday night AQs > AJc, villain is 150 eff and 3bets small in MP, i call from SB, flop QJx two spades. i chk, he bets, min click it, he calls. turn brick, i bet 40, he calls, ri 9, i bet 66 most of his stack, he calls KK > QTh villain raises 4x, i 3bet 3x on btm he calls, FL 69T he chk calls my 15 bet, turn 9, he chk calls my 49 bet, river 9, he chk calls my all in after tanking AK < JJ aipf QQ < 33 on a board of 355TJ JJ > 77 one limper then SB villian raises 7x from the SB, i 3bet 2.5x fro mthe bb, villain calls, flop TTJ, he chks i bet 1/4 he calls, turn J, chk chk, RI brick, he jam bluffs i win one AK < TT, lost a half stack on a QJ8x board, me folding on turn after raising then 4 betting pre and leading 25% on flop KJh < ATc, i chk raise all in on the turn w/ an open ender, flush draw, and overs vs a top pair and flush draw. i hit a king but he got his flush KK > QQ aipf AA < TT in a 4 bet pot, 3 low cards on flop, where he turned top set. 300 bb pot AK > AT in a 5-way to the flop hand w/ AAQ on board, villain only had 50 bbs in front of him though AK < ATs in a 3 bet pot. mp raised 4x, CO calls, i 3bet 3.5x on the btn, only the CO calls. FLOP K56, he checks, i bet 25% he calls, TU 5, he checks, i bet $42, he calls, RI T, he jams. sigh. i call. ANOTHER 3 outer loss with one card to come? ANOTHER dominated hand just making magic? out of 11 hands i was involved in big pots this session 8 i had a dominating hand pre: 5 won, 3 lost 2 flips: 2 lost 1 i was underdog: 1 lost

for reference, this is my chart representing account balance over my 10 months on wptgold, sample size about 300k hands:

()

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59393399#post59393399)

this is exactly the thing, i'm profitable, right around ~$25 / hr. (100 NL and a little bit of 200 NL)but the insanity that goes on is indescribable. it's crazy to even have to log this stuff, but once you do and you look back through it, it's painful and sketchy. i absolutely make a couple mistakes, but not ones that should leave me down 10 buyins. maybe 2-3 buyins of mistakes... See full post

Looks pretty crazy. I definitely expect crazier swings in PLO, but sometimes after dumping 10 buyins or so, I just gotta cover my mouth and yell as loud as I can (live in an apartment so still gotta keep it down) Pretty bad beats today even considering for PLO where some guy who usually plays crazy anyway (75/60) just kept putting in stack after stack. AA78ds

But let's concentrate on the real problem at hand. How the hell do they get away with having an obvious unrandom generator? Like how did they go through this without somebody looking at the hands going it is not possible to see the coolers that you see day in and day out. When you play here you have to always consider the monsters in the closet like the one hand that can beat you they always have it and again on my end when the guy has the second best hand I always have the one hand that can beat him. I mean there is no way this is a possibility.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59393493#post59393493)

for reference, this is my chart representing account balance over my 10 months on wptgold, sample size about 300k hands: ... See full post

Enough of the essay texts bro I know who the weak regs are, the bots, and everything in between. I would consider myself a top reg at these stakes. what's your screen name?

by Basketballcoach22 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59400773#post59400773)

I would consider myself a top reg at these stakes.

Then why do you short buy? [emoji12]

by Zobags m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59401118#post59401118)

Then why do you short buy? [emoji12]

Lessens swings, more buyins, both regs and fish play worse against that stack size, makes for easier decisions. I'm only saying top reg for 100 btw. That's not some big accomplishment. At 200 and 400 and heads up tables, there's lots of better players. At 200 I'm almost never the best player at the table. And in some all reg lineups, I'd be one of the weaker players I was just saying for the badass guy if I knew his screen name, I could at least see if I think he's winning.

by Basketballcoach22 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59401250#post59401250)

Lessens swings, more buyins, both regs and fish play worse against that stack size, makes for easier decisions. I'm only saying top reg for 100 btw. That's not some big accomplishment. At 200 and 400 and heads up tables, there's lots of better players. At 200 I'm almost never the best player at the table. And in some all reg lineups, I'd be one of the weaker players I was just ... See full post

All good points. I was just busting your balls. You play very well. No doubt you are one of the top regs at 200.

the long posts are just meant to give insight into what sessions have looked like for months. it's tough to document every session, because usually you just want to play the game and not worry about logging every big spot. also need to make sure to allow time for punching holes through walls 😀 i know the recaps are annoying; just want to show that this isn't some online amateur newbie with 2k hands posting saying the site is rigged. i can see the difference in skill going from 100 to 200 to 400 also, and understand that the winrate will be smaller then. i also know who the solid players are, and who i generally don't want to get all the money in against. i don't believe that running sideways for 3.5 months has happened because the competition is that much better. it's because a large % of the time, my AA in a 4 bet pot is losing to JTs, or Q9o calls a 3 bet then chk raise jams to beat my KK on a 942 flop, or my AK tptk is losing to KQ in a 3 bet pot when villain gets it all in then gutters me on the riv. after 100k hands of sideways, that's my opinion. the one thing that's kept me avout even is that the worst players do pay off in some terrible spots. is it just a case of when you run bad, you run real bad? that may be what is happening - it just feels off though. a hand from last week: MP solid reg opens, one caller in between, im in the blind w/ AA, i 3! 4x, only the original raiser reg calls. FLOP KJ7. i chk, he takes a stab for 1/3, i raise 3x. he calls. TURN brick 3. i check again, he bets half pot. i call. RIVER 7, i check. he jams. i think about it and fold, check the hands, he had 33. sometimes you catch a good player running that bluff but more often than not they have the goods. im loling to myself, because calling that flop x-raise is crazy, but the turn "brick" 3 found a way to get him there anyway. if there were chat, i'm sure i would have some very fun chat sessions with people. or bots, or whatever we are playing against! also we could communicate with whoever the actual other real players are. sn: jaydh39 by Basketballcoach22 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59400773#post59400773)

Enough of the essay texts bro I know who the weak regs are, the bots, and everything in between. I would consider myself a top reg at these stakes. what's your screen name?

7

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59402498#post59402498)

the long posts are just meant to give insight into what sessions have looked like for months. it's tough to document every session, because usually you just want to play the game and not worry about logging every big spot. also need to make sure to allow time for punching holes through walls 😀 i know the recaps are annoying; just want to show that this isn't some online amate... See full post

I've played with you on here and a lot on Global when I could play on there (in California) and you are absolutely not in the top echelon of regs at 100NL even. No offense, but there's a lot of leaks in your game and most of it starts with PF loose passiveness. I try to avoid players with basketball coach's stats as I think he's good and I'm not exactly looking to reg battle when there's so many good 100 tables.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59402498#post59402498)

the long posts are just meant to give insight into what sessions have looked like for months. it's tough to document every session, because usually you just want to play the game and not worry about logging every big spot. also need to make sure to allow time for punching holes through walls 😀 i know the recaps are annoying; just want to show that this isn't some online amate... See full post

That takes balls to actually give your screename! So kudos to you for that. And fwiw I do think you're a winning player! Not a top tier reg right now but youre a winner. I'll pm you some advice on how you can improve since you had the balls to actually give your screename

Something I've noticed about this site that I rarely noticed before. I very rarely go card dead at this site. Has anyone else noticed this? Maybe its just me. Coming from live play which is slow and only one table. But I do remember going through gaps of time of boredom when I played at ignition. Here on gold I'm in the action so much that there are times when I feel like I need to take a break and catch my breath.

appreciate the honesty from you boys. it is interesting to me that im viewed as too loose/passive pre. bc when my big pairs are losing to JTs and Q9o in 4 bet or big 3 bet pots, or bottom set losing to a bet/3bet all in jam w/ just a gutter on the flop, i can't be that bad, haha. lose enough of those, it's tough to end up in the green. and yes i am a winner. literally posted the chart haha. never claimed to be in the elite. only claimed to watch the craziest beats happen from both regs and crazies for months on end.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59392648#post59392648)

If you’re a winning plauer you’re likely to win money on Clubwptgold but it’s obviously rigged to allow fish to stay in the game longer for the sake of liquidity. Anyone denying this either doesn’t play on the site or has a low IQ.

Winrate throttling. This continues to be my experience there, at least at low stakes / micros. It's a great strategy from a business perspective, and probably good for the game overall. That said, it's advertised as something very different.

by Snipe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59406065#post59406065)

Winrate throttling. This continues to be my experience there, at least at low stakes / micros. It's a great strategy from a business perspective, and probably good for the game overall. That said, it's advertised as something very different.

These systems have been implemented in competitive multiplayer games to boost player engagement for years now.

() Anyone who isn't worried about grey-market gambling institutions adopting the same practices isn’t worth your time. It’s a great strategy because they aren’t subject to any laws, regulations or consequences.

I know you will say im a defender or whatever but... EOMM is a system in video games that pairs players not based on skill but to increase playtime. But club wpt fold doesnt pair you with opponents, you choose which tables and stakes to play right? If you are inferring that it deals the cards according to this system, you would get a easier runs after losses and harder runs after wins... But when I hear complaining about this site its that certain players ALWAYS run bad and other certain players ALWAYS run good... This goes directly against whats EOMM is designed for and what it says in your screenshot with text from reddit: its not close to 50% eq when certain players keep on receiving bad beats while others keep on giving bad beats. They dont place you in an easier lobby, you can join or leave any table you like. So how would this apply to a pokersite like clubwpgold? Honest interest, I hope you can explain rather just call me shill for what I think are reasonable questions.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59407548#post59407548)

I know you will say im a defender or whatever but...EOMM is a system in video games that pairs players not based on skill but to increase playtime.But club wpt fold doesnt pair you with opponents, you choose which tables and stakes to play right?If you are inferring that it deals the cards according to this system, you would get a easier runs after losses and harder runs after ... See full post

You get to choose which table you sit at in a mtt? News to me. Good thing we have super pros like Slugant around to upkeep the facts. I can’t imagine the rest of your post is a worthwhile read after that opener. The people claiming certain accounts ALWAYS run bad or ALWAYS run good are exaggerating. I’ve told you numerous times now that you cannot get hand histories from Clubwptgold. So I’m not sure how you think people are coming to these concrete conclusions without any of the info. The reason I don’t like to engage you is because you clearly don’t play on the site and therefore are mostly just obfuscating the conversation with your confusion. Some of the crown winners on the site do seem to be experiencing extraordinary rungood, based on observances from multiple players. Extraordinary rungood or Mike Postle-esque skills. Bumhunting whales in cash games is often still highly profitable despite potential cheating, which is why app games, home games, and private games all survive. I’m not talking about bumhunting fish to make a profit after rakeback lmao.

() Here’s some AI slop on the topic.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59407650#post59407650)

You get to choose which table you sit at in a mtt? News to me. Good thing we have super pros like Slugant around to upkeep the facts. I can’t imagine the rest of your post is a worthwhile read after that opener.

You dont get to choose your table but you do get to choose your opponents in the tournaments. If you a tournament with good/bad players registered its your choice whether to jump in or not. Lets say you had a bad run, EOMM cant register a bunch of weak players for you to face on. They have to register themselves. Just like you do. You dont get placed in a (tournament) lobby, you decide whether or not to register. For the rest of that sentence I knew something like that was coming instead of explaining something. And FYI I didnt mention hand histories, which I know are unavailable, or "bumhunting fish to make a profit after rakeback lmao". by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59407650#post59407650)

Extraordinary rungood or Mike Postle-esque skills.

So they keep running good and people against them keep running bad. So nothing like EOMM. Then again, so they really run like Mike Postle considering

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59407650#post59407650)

The people claiming certain accounts ALWAYS run bad or ALWAYS run good are exaggerating

Oh and if you want AI to actually talk about the relation between poker & eomm it clearly says this:

()

Most of your post is complete drivel and you’re assuming that clubwptgold is a reputable poker site. You’re quite literally too clueless to have an actual conversation with. Stick to bumhunting fish in cash games brother. Can you show me who owns and operates clubwptgold? I can also see that your AI answer is referencing “cardplayer lifestyle”. You’re not that good at this whole intelligent discussion thing. Really bro, maybe just stick to scamming people in online cash. Regardless, I’m just dropping info for players who keep their brains turned on and heads on a swivel. So I did a little digging and it’s incredible what you can find on the internet if you turn on your brain. Despite claiming to have a gaming license from the Malta Gaming Authority, there is no record of a ClubWPTGold or anything resembling it in the MGA’s license register. If you contact them they will inform you that the ClubWPTGold site is “not operated by an entity licensed by the Malta Gaming Authority.” So this site doesn’t even have a legit gaming license and this guy is still in here shilling for them despite not even playing on the site. Outrageous stuff lol. Why would Clubwptgold be lying about having a gaming license from Malta? I’m dying to hear Slugant’s take (not really lol). Btw it took me about 5 minutes and 1 email to the MGA to figure this out.

Saying EOMM doesnt apply to online poker because each player chooses which tables and tournaments to join isnt shilling. But I wouldnt expect you to say anything else really. I cant see where they claim to have a MGA license. But for starters, since it operates under sweepstakes and not gambling laws it doesnt even need one. by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59408276#post59408276)

I can also see that your AI answer is referencing “cardplayer lifestyle”. You’re not that good at this whole intelligent discussion thing. Really bro, maybe just stick to scamming people in online cash.

You are aware your "AI slop" only referenced Reddit. Talk about a high quality and surefire platform :p But hey, when you have nothing substantial to say, just call the other guy a shill or scammer on no grounds whatsoever.

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59408587#post59408587)

Saying EOMM doesnt apply to online poker because each player chooses which tables and tournaments to join isnt shilling. But I wouldnt expect you to say anything else really.I cant see where they claim to have a MGA license. But for starters, since it operates under sweepstakes and not gambling laws it doesnt even need one.You are aware your "AI slop" only referenced Reddit. Ta... See full post

No it was actually referencing this website.

https://promofy.ai/post/igaming-gamification-strategy/ Promofy iGaming Gamification Strategy: Engagement, Retention & Loyalty (https://promofy.ai/post/igaming-gamification-strategy/)

You can do a quick google search and see that there are numerous offerings such as this one and ClubWPTGold openly admits to working with A5 labs to implement unspecified AI solutions. You’re starting to really bore me. Is there anyone in here who has a clue what they are talking about? Or is it just this shill troll?

() Also not sure how you’re so inept. I’m just putting info out there that intelligent players can use. Despite making tons of money from this site, I can’t just sit back and watch an obvious scam rape the poker community. One of the big reasons poker will never become mainstream again is the high density of shills and scammers in the space. Players with integrity owe it to the community to expose bad actors even if we’re personally profiting from them. Lol no grounds whatsoever? You are living in a thread dedicated to a poker site you have never played on and seemingly have no relevant knowledge about. What could you possibly be contributing to the discussion beyond shilling or trolling? How did you even come to post here in the first place? I don’t think I’ve ever visited a thread for a site I don’t play on, let alone spent dozens or more hours flooding it with my completely uneducated thoughts. If you could combine this with my last post that would be great. Thanks big dawg.

A5 labs and promofy are 2 entirely different things. Promofy simply offer gamification tools. The idea of gamification in i-gaming has a long history its just a tool to increase engagement. Its stuff like rake races, leaderboards, missions and so on. When you look at rpgs especially mmorpg and freemium games they have very engaging game play loops that lead to long average sessions. There are indeed plenty of companies that offer gamification tools on either the operator or provider side. A5 labs I am less familiar with however my understanding is that it is mainly an ai game integrity solution. I think there is a good chance that their tool is also used to profile players and ban them. Just like a sportsbook limits or bans sharps a poker site might want to ban players that win too much. I think GGPoker and 888 have been known to close accounts of people who win too much. What exactly do you think these tools do? Could you also share a screenshot of wptgold advertising a mga license? That would indeed be outrageous.

by donjonnie m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409196#post59409196)

What exactly do you think these tools do? Could you also share a screenshot of wptgold advertising a mga license? That would indeed be outrageous.

Rig the deck of course :p by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59408762#post59408762)

No it was actually referencing this website.

The EOMM explanation in #414 was referencing reddit. And it doesnt sound like Reddit people but what they are saying doesnt hold up in practice. by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59408762#post59408762)

Despite making tons of money from this site, I can’t just sit back and watch an obvious scam rape the poker community

Wonder what "tons of money" is considering

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59331648#post59331648)

“Decent” regs are making the same money as fast food workers.

Should I perhaps also ask for your tax returns to verify winnings as you did mine, since this is a very normal thing to do?🙂 by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59408276#post59408276)

Despite claiming to have a gaming license from the Malta Gaming Authority

Since you want to expose bad actors, where do they claim this? Because that would be an outright lie (either by them or you)

by donjonnie m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409196#post59409196)

A5 labs and promofy are 2 entirely different things.Promofy simply offer gamification tools. The idea of gamification in i-gaming has a long history its just a tool to increase engagement.Its stuff like rake races, leaderboards, missions and so on.When you look at rpgs especially mmorpg and freemium games they have very engaging game play loops that lead to long average session... See full post

() Here is a screenshot I just took from the bottom of the “RNG Certification” page. My suspicion is that these AI tools are being used to create extremely detailed player profiles that may be used to alter the gaming experience in ways beneficial to the operator. Maybe the RNG itself isn’t rigged and instead they have a second layer of AI assisted systems to manipulate aspects of the game to create a more “fair” environment. They should be able to reliably determine how every player will play each specific spot. Idk about you but I can think of a few ways this could be used to artificially boost player engagement. Glad I don’t have to go 1 on 1 with the shill anymore And if they are willing to lie about their gaming license, I’m a bit afraid what the response would be if you contact eCOGRA and ask about the RNG cert.

as a web dev, this is where i absolutely agree. but i also think the RNG would need tinkering. back when i played on bonition, something just felt way off, for MONTHS, to both myself and many others. it was nearly impossible to win. i quit the platform. lo and behold, bots, bot farms, collusion rings, and even suspected house bots. which some people altered play to end up beating. but then they got banned!! when something feels weird, it very well could be messed up. you give me stats on players, and i see that player XYZ will get it in on any flush draw, or call a 4bet w/ kQo. just make that flush draw his 45% instead of 35%, or make that KQo beat AK 40% of the time instead of 30%. all of a sudden the game levels out and rake flows in forever. well, forever until all the state bans begin. hey i can't complain, i made one deposit and am up over $20k. just haven't been able to win anything in 3-4 months. which seems weird against such a loose/spaz pool. i jumped into some PLO to switch it up. got it in w/ AAxx double suited vs KKxx single suited for 3x starting stacks. very spewy player raising everything. he hit his flush draw - lol. bleck. by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409355#post59409355)

Here is a screenshot I just took from the bottom of the “RNG Certification” page.My suspicion is that these AI tools are being used to create extremely detailed player profiles that may be used to alter the gaming experience in ways beneficial to the operator. Maybe the RNG itself isn’t rigged and instead they have a second layer of AI assisted systems to manipulate aspects o... See full post

The only thing I can think of is that they’re listing MALTA GAMING AUTHORITY as a reference for the info on that page. This would be intentionally deceptive at best, making it look like their RNG has been certified by the MGA when they actually have no affiliation with them. anyone else who plays MTTs noticed how often players are shuffled around compared to other sites or just regular live events? Additionally, given mtt payout structures it would be trivial for them to manipulate ROI without messing with the core RNG algorithm.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409355#post59409355)

Here is a screenshot I just took from the bottom of the “RNG Certification” page.My suspicion is that these AI tools are being used to create extremely detailed player profiles that may be used to alter the gaming experience in ways beneficial to the operator. Maybe the RNG itself isn’t rigged and instead they have a second layer of AI assisted systems to manipulate aspects o... See full post

Just to be completely upfront. I have worked for a poker site in the past and am working in online gambling and have for a while. I see where you are coming from in regards to A5 Labs. From my experience I would assume the software or a similar one is being used right now to first of all increase game integrity to weed out bots and rta users. The second use case is obviously to profile players and refuse possibly refuse them service if they are considered bad for the games. I do understand where the suspicions come in as there have been some high ranking people in the industry about how they would love to turn poker into an rtp based game. I have not heard of anybody trying to implement that yet and I would assume it would be done out in the open. We are not in the wild west days of online gambling anymore and most people try to clean up their act. I cant say for sure nothing like this is going on right now but I doubt it. What I can tell you though is that you would be surprised about how many people that work in online gambling are poker, slots, blackjack player or sports punters themselves. I know a bunch of dudes in game integrity teams that used to be professional players and would burn the whole place to the ****ing ground if they caught a whiff of any rigging going on. Thats of course neither here nor there. I just want to mention that most people end up in this industry because they are gamblers. So most have an interest in having fair games. In general gaming operators that steal just keep your money when you try to withdraw. This still happens but has become much rarer. If you want to be protected from something like that happening play in a regulated market. Licenses to be wary of are ones like anjouan, curacao and kahnawake. Low entry barrier offshore licenses. Not everyone using a license like that is a bad actor but the chance is higher that you run into one. Although even Kahnawake and Curacao have made a lot of progress and started cleaning up their act. About the RNG that is not a MGA license or claims to be one. A MGA Licensed casino will have a note like this: LeoVegas Gaming plc is licensed and regulated by the Malta Gaming Authority, holding the corporate group license number MGA/CRP/237/2013 issued on 1st August 2018 to provide Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3 gaming services. Registered Office: Level 7 Plaza Business Centre, Triq Bisazza, Sliema SLM1640. It includes quite a bit of information. I do agree though that this looks weird. I have tried to look up the specific report shine some light on the specifics but couldn't find it. I can tell you a few things though. As mentioned this is not a MGA license or certification. This is a test report by ecogra for a rng developed by a company called Grand Cru Concepts in Cyprus. This is their office address: Grand Cru Concepts Ltd Arch. Makariou III & Evagorou, 1-7 MITSI 3, 1st floor, Flat/Office 102 1065, Nicosia, Cyprus I have never heard of the guys before. From my understanding how the MGA comes into play here is that ecogra has tested the RNG according to the MGA standards. This last part I am very confident in but not a 100% a quick email to WPT Gold, ecogra or Grand Cru should be able to clear that up though.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409451#post59409451)

as a web dev, this is where i absolutely agree. but i also think the RNG would need tinkering.back when i played on bonition, something just felt way off, for MONTHS, to both myself and many others. it was nearly impossible to win. i quit the platform. lo and behold, bots, bot farms, collusion rings, and even suspected house bots. which some people altered play to end up beatin... See full post

I dont know bonition and have never played there. I would be very wary of bots and rta in smaller rooms. Keep in mind that if you play against cardsharing bots rings the games will feel rigged and you will run way below expectation. The hole card sharing bots just have so much information about dead cards that cant be hitting turn or river that they can calculate ev much more accurate. Plo in particular is very susceptible to this. The more hand cards the bigger their advantage. by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409608#post59409608)

The only thing I can think of is that they’re listing MALTA GAMING AUTHORITY as a reference for the info on that page. This would be intentionally deceptive at best, making it look like their RNG has been certified by the MGA when they actually have no affiliation with them.

I explained this above. I agree that it should be better explained. That being said it might have been put up by someone from the industry who doesn't see the forrest for all the trees. MGA doesn't certify RNGs so for an industry veteran its obvious it cant mean that. MGA is a licensing body it doesn't do the testing that is done by labs like ecogra and GLI. Again I encourage you to contact Egogra, wpt gold and or Grand Cru. I am sure they will be happy to answer your questions.

Thanks Donjonnie, I appreciate the answer. I’ve read a few of your past posts and know you work directly in igaming. From what I’ve been able to gather, Grand Cru is a nebulous “software company” based out of Cyprus. Their website looks nice but that’s it. It contains no information about the company, the people behind it or their business dealings. I think you can identify some of the names supposedly connected to Grand Cru but nothing substantial (from Google, not their site). As far as I can tell, WPT licenses its brand to Grand Gru so to avoid having any direct ownership of the venture. Seems to me like they want to distance themselves from ClubWPTGold as there’s almost no mention of the “World Poker Tour” on clubwptgold’s poker site. Obviously everyone knows what WPT stands for but maybe this gives them some legal hole to skirt responsibility down the road. Another fishy element to ClubWPTGold is the complete lack of available stats for MTTs. They implemented a Hand Analysis feature that allows players to do some basic review on cash hands and cash stats are tracked over lifetime. However, despite being one of the core features of the site, there is no Hand Analysis for MTTs and player stats are only tracked per session. I don’t understand why there would be extra effort to obfuscate tournament data.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409355#post59409355)

And if they are willing to lie about their gaming license, I’m a bit afraid what the response would be if you contact eCOGRA and ask about the RNG cert.

Where do they actually claim they have a Malta Gaming License? I cant see it anywhere. And for the response, maybe indeed ask eCOGRA? by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409608#post59409608)

The only thing I can think of is that they’re listing MALTA GAMING AUTHORITY as a reference for the info on that page.

From the eCOGRA website, one quick google away: "Drawing on our extensive track record in iGaming services and compliance with the Malta Gaming Authority (MGA) we have assessed numerous online gaming products crafted for regulated jurisdictions worldwide. Our thorough approach spans the assessment of functionality, performance, compatibility, integration, and security of online gambling products." But a back on EOMM, in a way every app and game uses this to an extent. They want to retain players. Nowadays is more obvious in poker with leaderboards and little missions that are given more to recreationals than winning regs. In the past it was reload bonuses for losing players while. That is the practically of EOMM in online poker and gaming. Not just this site but all. The regs will keep on playing anyway so they butter up the recreationals with funny missions, bonuses and throwables etc. Its gamification to retain recreationals that like that kind of stuff, which has nothing to with their RNG. To imply that EOMM has something to do with runouts or chooses your opponents without any foundation has nothing to do with "calling out bad actors" And me explaining this basic stuff to you (and you probably misunderstanding it) has nothing to do with shilling. Oh and you can trust me since Im not Chinese:p

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409613#post59409613)

The greater poker community is just being exposed to China. Mainland Chinese culture supports cheating. It’s not unethical to cheat and if you’re not cheating you’re not trying hard enough and falling behind the rest. Anyone that went to college with Chinese international students knows they cheat just as easily as they breathe.

Right, maybe someone can explain why eCOGRA, a London based org is using the MGA’s standards instead of the UKGC? I also took a cursory look through eCOGRA’s site and there was no indication that they specifically work with the MGA. I see if you do a google search for both terms it pops up but it must be buried. Slugant, appreciate the response but you have no inside info. You can’t say with certainty that eomm systems aren’t being used on Clubwptgold. All we really know about clubwptgold is they claim that their RNG algo passed some eCOGRA tests. They 100% do not have a gaming license and it’s unclear to me if eCOGRA testing or any regulatory body’s scrutiny was applied to their AI systems. It’s common for regulation to lag behind emerging tech and I don’t think eCOGRA has a robust method of testing AI systems. I’ll probably email eCOGRA to try and get some details. If an investment firm wanted to maximize their profits in the igaming space, employing cutting edge AI systems that aren’t subject to regulation would be top of the list. And there’s no reason to argue about it but only a tiny fraction of regs will happily reg battle. The regs follow the fish, as they should and once a site stops bringing in new fish or the regs start winning more than the fish can afford, your poker ecosystem begins its death spiral. Also eomm is not simply rewards system lol. I recommend you read up on how eomm is applied to competitive matchmaking and think about how it could be applied to poker.

by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409805#post59409805)

Thanks Donjonnie, I appreciate the answer. I’ve read a few of your past posts and know you work directly in igaming. From what I’ve been able to gather, Grand Cru is a nebulous “software company” based out of Cyprus. Their website looks nice but that’s it. It contains no information about the company, the people behind it or their business dealings. I think you can identif... See full post

Yes it seems like WPTGold is owned by Grand Cru Concepts and they are registered in Cyprus. This is in itself not uncommon. Pokerstars is owned by Flutter, Betano is owned by Kaizen and so on. The WPT or owners of the WPT probably have a stake in Grand Cru or the Holding company that owns it. Cyprus is a common jurisdiction to register igaming companies working in unregulated markets. As this markets are a grey area often people involved in these companies, especially the ones tending to darker shades of grey want to be anonymous. What do you mean by hand analysis tool? I have never played on wpt so i honestly don't know. Is it just a replayer or something like on chess.com, something like a training tool? If its the later it might just be because of the limitation of their solver. Mtts are complicated to solve because of constantly changing effective stacksizes and ICm considerations. I am just speculating here though. by DoyleBrunsonFan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59409912#post59409912)

Right, maybe someone can explain why eCOGRA, a London based org is using the MGA’s standards instead of the UKGC? I also took a cursory look through eCOGRA’s site and there was no indication that they specifically work with the MGA. I see if you do a google search for both terms it pops up but it must be buried. Slugant, appreciate the response but you have no inside info. ... See full post

Yeah sure the reason that MGA has become the standard is that it was so widely applied. Malta is part of the EU was very early to regulated online gambling and offered tax benefits to attract operators while being able to open the doors to all of europe as again it is part of the EU and interstate commerce is protected. The Maltese license used to be the absolute gold standard in igaming. Maltese licensed casinos where offering games all over europe, canada, new zealand, latin america and africa even parts of asia. These days most countries have regulated and the MGA license is usually used together with a local license with its one requirements a lot of state regulations and certification requirements lean heavily on the maltese framework. So although I have no doubts that Ecogra can also work on certification as per UKGC. I have never directly worked with them but the testlabs I have worked with were perfectly capable to test to different standards. Ai is of course widely used in igaming. You seem to imply that the use case here would be to somehow rig the games, yes? I wholeheartedly disagree with that. I think the best use cases are in marketing and in lobby optimisation. I think you drastically overestimate how much that would affect the bottom line. You are of course right that you need to keep the ecosystem healthy. Thats why winners are banned and marketing spend increases more and more. Its no secret that operators have decreased the incentives for winning players and some even outright ban them.

Did they just eliminate multi-tabling?

So many regfish in these games. No wonder you all think it is rigged.

Having worked at some of the top tech companies in the world, I can confidently say you'd be shocked at things they'll do to make money. The sole purpose of a company is to make money. The goal is not to act ethically, or even build a business with long term viability. If you could magically calculate how much money a company would make over the lifetime of that company, and offered that lump sum today in exchange for shutting their doors for good - they'd take it immediately (likely far less for various reasons). Now if you're a company, operating in a gray area where various governments are trying to shut you down constantly, you know your operating on a limited timeline. With regulation haphazard at best, and a limited timeline, I can assure you there are execs and investors pushing to accelerate profits sooner rather than later, even if that puts the long term future of the business at risk. They are actively holding meetings, discussing how they can maximize numbers over the next quarter, half, and FY. I'm sure they are also looking at 1 - 2 year timelines - and maybe further - but the bulk of the focus has to be now with the uncertainty of the environment. To me, the argument that "throttling would put the whole business at risk" is both ignoring history, and how these types of businesses operate. It's a fun site to play on, and you can certainly win at a good clip, but neither of those things mean the games are fair or unmolested.

by Snipe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59414399#post59414399)

To me, the argument that "throttling would put the whole business at risk" is both ignoring history, and how these types of businesses operate.

I must have missed something big here Which pokersite was ever caught throttling (the act of rigging to have losers lose less and winners win less) ? You say its how these types of businesses operate and thinking this doesnt happen is "ignoring history" so you must have at least one documented case of this happening right?

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59414533#post59414533)

I must have missed something big here Which pokersite was ever caught throttling (the act of rigging to have losers lose less and winners win less) ? You say its how these types of businesses operate and thinking this doesnt happen is "ignoring history" so you must have at least one documented case of this happening right?

Straw manning eh? Lmao. Seems about right for a guy who named himself after two types of pests.

by Snipe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59414674#post59414674)

Straw manning eh? Lmao. Seems about right for a guy who named himself after two types of pests.

So you only got something on my username but not even one case of throttling even though its "ignoring history and how these businesses operate" eh? Lmao. Its a literal quote, so no strawmanning, and if you make a claim like that it shouldnt be hard to show at least one case. Seems about right for a guy who named himself snipe which can be defined as an unfair verbal attack 😉

pretty sure Snipe was referecing shady, profit-focused businesses in general and not just the small handful of online poker sites/businesses. because saying, "why would a company risk it...?" is crazy, when we've seen how many companies utilize endless sketchy tactics to get monies.

as soon as elite players under my code stop cashing monthly 10k+ checks at WPTgold I suppose I would take all this seriously. Until then what's the point? its a gold mine (that is admittedly shrinking)

by Slugant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59414804#post59414804)

So you only got something on my username but not even one case of throttling even though its "ignoring history and how these businesses operate" eh? Lmao. Its a literal quote, so no strawmanning, and if you make a claim like that it shouldnt be hard to show at least one case. Seems about right for a guy who named himself snipe which can be defined as an unfair verbal attack 😉

I wish you good luck in life.

by badazzss m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59414836#post59414836)

pretty sure Snipe was referecing shady, profit-focused businesses in general and not just the small handful of online poker sites/businesses. because saying, "why would a company risk it...?" is crazy, when we've seen how many companies utilize endless sketchy tactics to get monies.

Its not that I have the belief that profit-based are filled exclusively with very ethical people, of course not. But the throttling discussion is specific on poker, which is the part I was quoting. I think its too easy to say profit-focused businesses are bad therefore pokersites are as well, without providing anything to back that claim up. Especially when someone points in the direction of throttling i.e. balancing the ecoysystem by limiting winners and helping fish. Its a theory I have heard many a time so I was hoping for some substantiation this time. If I said humans have been caught cheating countless times, therefore you must be cheating as well I should be able to provide at least one case of you cheating before I make that accusation right? Instead of blaming you of committing a specific offence with nothing to back that up except generic "they are all bad" stuff.

I've been paying a lot to reveal cards, almost every hand at this level trying to pick up reads on the player pool. Lot of truly bizarre play at PLO5 1/2c. 4bet 5bet 6bet backraising from random positions, and it's never with a hand. It's like they just saw an opportunity to spaz and went for it now that the pot was big enough preflop. Players limping for 1BB but somehow ending up calling off 150BB pre just to see a flop with 25BB left behind. Tons of minraising pre, and even stranger minbetting post. Lots of 1BB donkbets, sometimes maybe 2 or 3BB's on every street, despite calling a pot sized raise they just try and donkbet the next street for 2BB again. Tends to look like a desperate attempt at a stopbet so they can draw for cheap. They have no intention of folding to a massive raise but if they can get you to just call their ******ed bet instead they're happier for it. If anyone check raises it's always top set. If they donkbet pot it's always 2pair. And sometimes I'll see someone with 2000BB stack running 98/64 stats just 4betting and 5betting random junk cards and obviously getting there vs AA every time. I doubled up and was left with 388BB so if they are raking 12BB per hand I dont see how this is remotely beatable.