83 replies
Apparently this is a substantially down year for tourism in Vegas. One would think this would affect the action in the poker rooms. I haven't been out there in a while. What's the boots on the ground view of this, especially for locals / regulars. And it is effecting on and off strip equally?
Yes
Less recreationals in Strip poker rooms, so the tables have more grinders and tight retirees. Off-Strip remains reg heavy and tight retirees. Not a good time for Vegas poker.
This sounds bad.
Haven’t noticed anything. Compared to last year the number of tourists are down, but compared to two years ago it isn’t nearly as bad as the media is making it out to be.
It is already bad and getting worse by the day …
From what I read on the internetz, Vegas is one of the worst places in the entire US to play live poker (at least for the lower stakes). I'm sure this tougher economy isn't helping things.
by Mother Mucker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59136383#post59136383)
From what I read on the internetz, Vegas is one of the worst places in the entire US to play live poker (at least for the lower stakes). I'm sure this tougher economy isn't helping things.
Naa, used to be one if the best … but not anymore
So what is the best now? by Whiskeyjack1 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59136392#post59136392)
Naa, used to be one if the best … but not anymore
the people saying the games in Vegas are bad now are the same people saying the games in Vegas were bad 2 years ago.
This kinda stinks: Vegas Casino CEO Admits Why the City Is Empty - No More Riff Raff - YouTube
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Vegas Casino CEO Admits Why the City Is Empty - No More Riff Raff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjRMEYkCgjw)Broken Foundations (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_0tDCp9zuka4pT__WoXdBQ) Broken Foundations 16.9K subscribers
by pig4bill m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59137062#post59137062)
This kinda stinks:... See full post
Good video, but it skips lightly over the most direct slap at Las Vegas' core customers ..... The entire F1 story reflects a real , knowing F. U. to regular customers, locals and workers in Las Vegas. The "regular" customers were basically told, Sorry, but we are going after EuroTrash , literally shutting down the Strip (and all the cross-streets) for both the preparation period and the race day itself. The larger properties forgot their core market. F1 should NOT be renewed, it literally hijacks the streets, including far more than the Strip, in favor of a marketing push for "high-end" F1 visitors. It does so during pretty popular times for regular, historic visitors .... The larger casinos tell regulars, you are NOT who we want, stay away. The irony is that F1 runs in other cities in a much less disruptive mode. For Christ's sake, Las Vegas has a VERY nice race track development the LVMS. The better choice than kicking regular visitors to the curb would have been to BUILD an F1 course out at the LVMS property...... (More generally speaking .... SouthPoint, far down Las Vegas Boulevard, is the large hotel, value bet for any Las Vegas visitors, and especially for POKER players.)
by Langdon m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59136655#post59136655)
the people saying the games in Vegas are bad now are the same people saying the games in Vegas were bad 2 years ago.
Agreed, and they were saying that back in 2010.
by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59137820#post59137820)
Agreed, and they were saying that back in 2010.
I've been to Vegas many times over the years and have never had a losing trip and am always blown away by how mediocre and lazy the regs are. The way lower rake than many places is always notable for me too. Vegas poker is fine.
by NotMe m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59137741#post59137741)
Good video, but it skips lightly over the most direct slap at Las Vegas' core customers ..... The entire F1 story reflects a real , knowing F. U. to regular customers, locals and workers in Las Vegas. The "regular" customers were basically told, Sorry, but we are going after EuroTrash , literally shutting down the Strip (and all the cross-streets) for both the preparation perio... See full post
Yeah all good, but have you ever looked at the map and seen how many strip hotels would be affected by this (mainly by not being able to sell rooms with a view of the race for crazy prices)? If you look at that map, hmm, that's probably not going to happen. I'm not following F1 much anymore, but there are also other inner city races such as Monaco or Singapore, and these tend to be the most popular among the fans and ofc huge cash cows for any property along the way.
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by acescracked84 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59137952#post59137952)
I've been to Vegas many times over the years and have never had a losing trip and am always blown away by how mediocre and lazy the regs are. The way lower rake than many places is always notable for me too. Vegas poker is fine.
Agreed. I’d say Euro regs (assuming that’s where you’re from) are on average 50% stronger than US regs, which would put a bad Euro on par with a mediocre US one. Done like 20+ trips over the years myself, still the fact remains that tourism is way down which also reflects on the poker rooms and economy Funny (for me good) side story: Going in Dec again, had my room now cancelled and rebooked like 5 times (bc it became cheaper and cheaper) … they don’t give you huge discounts when everything is going great.
On the F1 topic: Read somewhere that gambling revenue from that weekend is like 10 x compared to normal weekends, plus coming from less people (meaning average bet size is much much bigger due to highrollers). It’s a cash cow for them, they’ll keep doing it and say FU to „normal folks“
I wonder what the game are like while F1 is in town? by Whiskeyjack1 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59138093#post59138093)
On the F1 topic: Read somewhere that gambling revenue from that weekend is like 10 x compared to normal weekends, plus coming from less people (meaning average bet size is much much bigger due to highrollers). It’s a cash cow for them, they’ll keep doing it and say FU to „normal folks“
Giving this a bump to see if anything has changed. Has it picked up through November?
the weekend was busy as ever
the people saying low stakes poker sucks in vegas. I don't know if that's true or not but I feel what is true is that within the last 5 years with texas poker and FL poker boomed a bit pre covid and post covid, it just made other options for other low-med stakes pretty good so its not ALL concentrated in certain regions like it used to be.
by the pleasure m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59184623#post59184623)
the people saying low stakes poker sucks in vegas. I don't know if that's true or not but I feel what is true is that within the last 5 years with texas poker and FL poker boomed a bit pre covid and post covid, it just made other options for other low-med stakes pretty good so its not ALL concentrated in certain regions like it used to be.
I see two options. They either suck themselves they just don’t know it or they have much better games in Florida or in Texas which makes sense. As a European I can only dream about getting back to Vegas, the games compared to here are so insanely good.
by MuckPls m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59185416#post59185416)
I see two options. They either suck themselves they just don’t know it or they have much better games in Florida or in Texas which makes sense. As a European I can only dream about getting back to Vegas, the games compared to here are so insanely good.
I believe you are correct, sir, but am interested in what makes it this way. What is it about "the European style" that allows them to crush Vegas games vs standard Euro games? FWIW, I play a tight, somewhat aggressive, value oriented style that works in my local games as well as when playing cash in Vegas. My personal view is that most players play too wide, because "I'm not here to fold, I'm here to play!" I exploit this with patient play, and seek value with made hands, sneaking in some semi-bluffs once my image has been established. My sense based on past history is that many capable Euros, post-flop, tend to be rather aggressive, especially in position or when sensing weakness. I've developed strategies to counter this, but admittedly still get most of my value from non-Euros.
by TopGun in VA m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59185907#post59185907)
I believe you are correct, sir, but am interested in what makes it this way. What is it about "the European style" that allows them to crush Vegas games vs standard Euro games?FWIW, I play a tight, somewhat aggressive, value oriented style that works in my local games as well as when playing cash in Vegas. My personal view is that most players play too wide, because "I'm not he... See full post
Probably, and this is only a theory, lack of casinos with live poker = more online games = more online crushers. If you beat NL50 online over a decent sample size you will have absolutely zero issues with 1/3, 2/5 and maybe even some 5/10 games in the US. How many card rooms does the US have? Hundreds if not thousands. In Europe a couple of dozen at max and only a handful of those run 24/7. And when you play the fish to reg ratio is extremely low. Take Malta as an example where me and BigWhale used to play. €1/€2 €500 cap game runs every night from 6pm. 8-9 Italian or Maltese regs and/or maybe some UK pros. All sitting silently. No drinks, no alcohol, no straddles. Just regs battling regs endlessly. Sometimes during the bigger poker events / festivals we get some whales or fish but then the wait list gets hundreds deep. Anyway, tldr, the most likely reason is that European poker players were raised and learned under much tougher conditions, there are no lose games around and we can take advantage of your regular rec or US fish because they are so incredibly passive it’s absurd.
by MuckPls m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186074#post59186074)
Take Malta as an example where me and BigWhale used to play. €1/€2 €500 cap game runs every night from 6pm. 8-9 Italian or Maltese regs and/or maybe some UK pros. All sitting silently. No drinks, no alcohol, no straddles. Just regs battling regs endlessly. Sometimes during the bigger poker events / festivals we get some whales or fish but then the wait list gets hundreds deep.
Can confirm this. I enjoy playing cash games and should probably play it more here in Malta, but the games on most days just look very boring. Several faces that I recogize as serious grinders and/or unknowns looking like tough European grinders. There will undoubtedly be occasional fish dropping by here and there (especially in the summer), but it's not something you can count on. Coming to Vegas is like a fresh breath of air in comparison. Some games can be a bit tight and boring at times, but in general there are so many people like 'TopGun' described above - people who don't have the patience to sit and fold. And as long as US have a good gambling & poker culture, these types of players will always exist and flock to Vegas. Even if there are hundreds of other poker rooms around the country now, Las Vegas still have that magical attraction for most.
To put it concisely: people go to Vegas to gamble 😉
Over time it makes sense for games to get tighter, as being super tight is unfortunately the correct strategy for high rake, no ante games. And as more people adopt this style the less exciting the games are for the looser gamblers. Promos such as freerolls for number of hours played further encourage people to sit there for hours and play tight It would be interesting to see experimentation that punishes a super tight style, such as antes. For example a forced ante from the big blind or the button
by Mastahead m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186262#post59186262)
It would be interesting to see experimentation that punishes a super tight style, such as antes. For example a forced ante from the big blind or the button
David Sklansky once wrote that no-limit with 2 blinds and without antes should be a dead game. The only reason it is not, is that people are playing with "invisible antes" (by entering too many pots with poor hands). Allow me to quote ChatGPT:
by Mastahead m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186262#post59186262)
Over time it makes sense for games to get tighter, as being super tight is unfortunately the correct strategy for high rake, no ante games. And as more people adopt this style the less exciting the games are for the looser gamblers. Promos such as freerolls for number of hours played further encourage people to sit there for hours and play tightIt would be interesting to see ex... See full post
the most obvious solution to this is straddled games. my home room now has 2/3-6, 2/5-10 and 5/10-20 with an optional live straddle at 2/3 my guess would be that it's only in play 25% of the tables, but it's pretty much always in play at 2/5-10 and maybe 75% of the time at 5/10-20 and PLO is pretty much exclusively 1/2-5 and 5/5-10
Venetian was booming the other weekend, Bellagio/Wynn/Aria is steady as expected, the “less populat” tourney series such as GN’s summer and Orleans recent winter series have been seeing overlays. Most 1/3 nlhe is so tight in vegas its tough to get repeat customers when they call with KQ/QJ and top pair and see AA/sets so frequently. I see people regularly folding (probably correctly) JT/J9/QT/Q9o in late position nowadays. I remember a time in 1/2-1/3 those hands were calling a 3x-10x raise pre (again probably incorrectly).
by feel wrath m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186598#post59186598)
the most obvious solution to this is straddled games.
Big blind ante is the other obvious solution. Increases the per orbit cost, gives more reason to enter the pot, but does not automatically turn the game into something twice as big.
by BigWhale m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186423#post59186423)
David Sklansky once wrote that no-limit with 2 blinds and without antes should be a dead game. The only reason it is not, is that people are playing with "invisible antes" (by entering too many pots with poor hands). Allow me to quote ChatGPT:- ... See full post
hes actually right and hes not the only one who has said this. antes help NLH a lot. its hte reason stud has had them since scratch lol by Hell2Heaven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186606#post59186606)
Venetian was booming the other weekend, Bellagio/Wynn/Aria is steady as expected, the “less populat” tourney series such as GN’s summer and Orleans recent winter series have been seeing overlays.Most 1/3 nlhe is so tight in vegas its tough to get repeat customers when they call with KQ/QJ and top pair and see AA/sets so frequently. I see people regularly folding (probably corr... See full post
that has to be a bad game that people are folding those hands in LP. that cant be the pop norm
by Mastahead m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186262#post59186262)
Over time it makes sense for games to get tighter, as being super tight is unfortunately the correct strategy for high rake, no ante games. And as more people adopt this style the less exciting the games are for the looser gamblers. Promos such as freerolls for number of hours played further encourage people to sit there for hours and play tightIt would be interesting to see ex... See full post
Maybe. More likely is a lot of those types wouldn't play. They would either find games that didn't have antes, or quit coming to Vegas.
Back from a week of WPT and Venetian deep stack. Arrived the last weekend of rodeo and it was packed. The following weekend was surprisingly very busy. That’s usually a dead time of year but it seemed busier than last year. I only played a few hours of cash at Venetian. Game played small. 3/5 at Venetian had a lot of $500 buy ins. On break, I’d look around at 1/2 2/3 or whatever they run and it was mostly sub $200 stacks and maybe one or two 600-700 stacks. I’m spoiled by the games in the South. 1/2 here (really 1/2/10) plays so much bigger than 3/5 at Venetian. That room is really nice though and the staff was great. Wynn and Venetian blow the WSOP away. Overall, the death of Vegas seems to be greatly exaggerated. Except Fontainebleau, that place is dead. I’m pretty sure all of the tournaments easily surpassed all of the guarantees.
by the pleasure m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59186788#post59186788)
that has to be a bad game that people are folding those hands in LP. that cant be the pop norm
I should have said “folding these hands to a min raise”, because I play outside of busy times like Rodeo/NYE/Superbowl/March Madness, I see a table of majority promo grinder (especially with hourly rakeback becoming very popular and spreading in Vegas). If its not a hand that can make high hand or BBJ the Q9-J9o are getting open folded or limped at best folded plenty to a 3x raise. And as said above, having played private and casinos all over the country the 2/5-3/5 in vegas plays like a 1/3 most places, and the 1/3 is just nitfest
yes
by williamJr m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59190887#post59190887)
yes
Says the person who doesn’t know Ballys is now Horseshoe and Flamingo closed its room years ago.
by Hell2Heaven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59190541#post59190541)
I should have said “folding these hands to a min raise”, because I play outside of busy times like Rodeo/NYE/Superbowl/March Madness, I see a table of majority promo grinder (especially with hourly rakeback becoming very popular and spreading in Vegas). If its not a hand that can make high hand or BBJ ... See full post
damn. that sucks bt not sure if poker just gotten better or time depending. I always read threads on reddit about 1/3 which room is best which room is best. i always feel like it just depends and that most the 1-3 games in vegas at least, all play the same, if youre a really good player you'll beat it but if youre average only, youre goign to be breakeven . i have had others say it really varies by room. i always felt it just plays the same and depends on tiem and say
by razorbacker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59187582#post59187582)
I only played a few hours of cash at Venetian. Game played small. 3/5 at Venetian had a lot of $500 buy ins. On break, I'd look around at 1/2 2/3 or whatever they run and it was mostly sub $200 stacks and maybe one or two 600-700 stacks.
I played like 6 sessions of Venetian 2/3 in 2025 and the game was never small. when I bought in for $400 I was one of the shortest. usually had 3 tables running and they were all similar
by the pleasure m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59184623#post59184623)
the people saying low stakes poker sucks in vegas. I don't know if that's true or not but I feel what is true is that within the last 5 years with texas poker and FL poker boomed a bit pre covid and post covid, it just made other options for other low-med stakes pretty good so its not ALL concentrated in certain regions like it used to be.
I consider myself a solid to very good low stakes player. I have no illusions of moving up and making it a career, but I am profitable and I still enjoy the rush of often pulling $500 to $1000 in profit from my weekend Friday and Saturday sessions. That said, I dont get the complaints about low-level Vegas tables. I always go in June, during the WSOP so with that said . . . Let's look at the positives
by Hell2Heaven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59190541#post59190541)
I should have said “folding these hands to a min raise”, because I play outside of busy times like Rodeo/NYE/Superbowl/March Madness, I see a table of majority promo grinder (especially with hourly rakeback becoming very popular and spreading in Vegas). If its not a hand that can make high hand or BBJ the Q9-J9o are getting open folded or limped at best folded plenty to a 3x ra... See full post
I must be confused, who in the world plays Q9o ever? At best, you miss and can take down a raggedy flop with a cbet If you make any pair, make a decent bet and are called, you're outkicked Your odds of 2 pair on the flop are literally 2% Your odds of a straight or flush by the river are almost 0% If you play Q9o, you're an idiot or action junkie, but that's pretty much the same thing If you're at a table where people call or bet pre with Q9o you're at a table of idiots who are there to gamble and not play poker I mean, I guess you want them to play that hand, but I wouldnt play Q9o with free money Telling me I'm a nit for this belief tells me you think poker is just a game of "chicken" where your actions supposedly equal your manhood and not a game of math and psychology, and I'm too old to be lured into being stupid enough to defend some imagined pride or image
by razorbacker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59187582#post59187582)
Back from a week of WPT and Venetian deep stack. Arrived the last weekend of rodeo and it was packed. The following weekend was surprisingly very busy. That's usually a dead time of year but it seemed busier than last year. I only played a few hours of cash at Venetian. Game played small. 3/5 at Venetian had a lot of $500 buy ins. On break, I'd look around at 1/2 2/3 or w... See full post
I believe that Fontainebleau investors spent billions and one month after opening will never recover from a $21 plate of nachos And I for one, who hates to take joy in others' mistakes or pain, make an exception for these people Those who insisted on charging $24 for 6 nachos . . . there are no words (or at least words I want to type) Billions of dollars of time and effort destroyed in one tweet exposing the most mind-boggling absurd and embarrassing effort to rob their guests
https://vegas.eater.com/2024/1/26/24051397/fontainebleau-las-vegas-nachos-social-media-controversy Eater Vegas The Strip’s Newest Casino Charged $21 for Six Nacho Chips — And So NachoGate Was Born (https://vegas.eater.com/2024/1/26/24051397/fontainebleau-las-vegas-nachos-social-media-controversy)
by BSumner m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59196311#post59196311)
I believe that Fontainebleau investors spent billions and one month after opening will never recover from a $21 plate of nachos And I for one, who hates to take joy in others' mistakes or pain, make an exception for these peopleThose who insisted on charging $24 for 6 nachos . . . there are no words (or at least words I want to type)Billions of dollars of time and effort destr... See full post
The whole Strip is in on the effort to rob their guests. Especially charging their room guests for parking. How is parking not covered by the room resort fee? The Strip is saying that it doesn't care if the tourism downturn continues.
by JoseJohnnyJimJack m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59196876#post59196876)
The whole Strip is in on the effort to rob their guests. Especially charging their room guests for parking. How is parking not covered by the room resort fee? The Strip is saying that it doesn't care if the tourism downturn continues.
Yup, you could be in for 80 bucks a night before you even get to your room.
Casinos don't care about broke 1/3 poker players that grind hours for free drinks. Yes, there's less tourists but the gaming revenue is up and clubs were still packed even for a slow month like December. TLDR, less broke tourists that walk around not spending money but more whales gambling. Vegas is very much alive lol. And yes, I live here and I'm on the strip every weekend.
by BSumner m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59196311#post59196311)
I believe that Fontainebleau investors spent billions and one month after opening will never recover from a $21 plate of nachos And I for one, who hates to take joy in others' mistakes or pain, make an exception for these peopleThose who insisted on charging $24 for 6 nachos . . . there are no words (or at least words I want to type)Billions of dollars of time and effort destr... See full post
To be fair the place was an empty money pit run my imbeciles before that ever happened.
if vegas has gotten as bad and continues to be as bad as the internet and peopl e say it is ( i wouldnt know I assume it def tilts more to agree with what people are saying) if the trend continues and its true downturns keep happening than obv in 2 -3 years lots of properties and strip itself with adjust and kinda "cave in" in a sense at some point
by BadLieutenant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59198380#post59198380)
Casinos don't care about broke 1/3 poker players that grind hours for free drinks. .
I feel insulted and seen at the same time.
The particular era of casino/private holdem that I came up in Q9-J9-T9 were shown down quite a bit as winners…things obviously changed with internet and solvers etc.
by Hell2Heaven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59199985#post59199985)
The particular era of casino/private holdem that I came up in Q9-J9-T9 were shown down quite a bit as winners…things obviously changed with internet and solvers etc.
Poker was much better (in terms of both fun and profit) when there were more degens/gamblers and less nerds.
by Mother Mucker m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59201190#post59201190)
Poker was much better (in terms of both fun and profit) when there were more degens/gamblers and less nerds.
Essentially what I was saying, without using those exact words to describe them. I think its very nuanced as to why nlhr poker changed, and its not just a huge shift of players considering profitability, I think its more psychological. Just as another poster stated “who would be playing Q9?!?!.” Some people play what is effectively a game to get everything the game offers OTHER than money, whether the feeling of “winning” a hand or “beating” a player in a hand. Some people just play for profit. If you have played long enough you can remember when you realized which player you were and when you realized when the ecosystem shifted and became heavily weighted towards those who wanted to make every poker decision as a function of profitability. It was becoming strategically optimized publicly and those who didn’t see the fun in going down that path mostly quit or changed to a different variant. Now what you have left is a 8-9 handed table where people are literally only raising KJo or better, and coolers needed to move money around, or 5 competent players trying to crush one fish…..which is not what NLHE was when I started playing live around 2005.
Having been in Vegas a few weeks ago, I think it is definitely slower. There are less people no doubt. That said, I think the games are juicier. I think the fish (respectfully said) are willing to lose greater amounts. It is a K shaped economy. As for playing Q9 or how no limit should be dead because it should be a battle of the blinds, just know you are technically correct (the worst kind of correct) while being part of the problem. I know it is out of style nowadays, but there is this concept called implied odds. I understand that it is a meme for players to use implied odds as an excuse to play crap. That said, the concept of implied odds still matters. There is a significant portion of the poker playing base that is playing for reasons other than money. They are there for social reasons, or for gambling reasons, or whatever. Making money is not the highest priority, at least if they were being 100% honest wih themselves. In those cases, people playing extremely tight (like folding Q9 in late position) are missing the forest through the trees. Your implied odds are much higher than you realize. You aren't just fighting for the blinds. In fact you are likely playing against some players who are looking to gamble and ultimately do not mind occasionally getting it in bad if they are honest with themselves. In fact, I would posit that playing tight is destroying the game. Those type of players are not there to sit around and fold for hours until they get a hand to three bet with. They are looking for much more immediate action. By making the games boring for them they are pushing them towards playing blackjack or craps instead.
From threads like this and some youtubes, I figured rooms would be cheap. But they're not. I checked a few dates in the next few months, and the prices were way too high for me. How could they not be cheap? Then I saw this: Leaked email CONFIRMS the Vegas Death Spiral… this is how modern day Las Vegas “ENDS.” - YouTube
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Leaked email CONFIRMS the Vegas Death Spiral… this is how modern day Las Vegas “ENDS.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EiAd3QA-k0)Not Leaving Las Vegas - a Vegas Video Channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvPF5BTSF8Y3-eDSqVw81qw) Not Leaving Las Vegas - a Vegas Video Channel130K subscribers
Interesting. Makes me wonder if it's worth trying to make Diamond again this year. If things really go south, they could cancel most, or all, of the Diamond benefits.
Rooms from Mid Jan through March are going to be a bit higher, Vegas is having their run of conventions and big sports that use up a bunch of rooms. CES-Concrete Convention-AVN-Superbowl-March Madness. I imagine April until WSOP shouldn't be too bad, I don't gamble much (platinum) and I get comps with Caesars outside of Fri-Sat.
by pig4bill m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59214372#post59214372)
Interesting. Makes me wonder if it's worth trying to make Diamond again this year. If things really go south, they could cancel most, or all, of the Diamond benefits.
A big tell for me was the speed at which a number of casinos recently switched from traditional craps (1.4% house edge) to crapless craps (5.4%).
by PokerHero77 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59214770#post59214770)
A big tell for me was the speed at which a number of casinos recently switched from traditional craps (1.4% house edge) to crapless craps (5.4%).
Yikes, is that on tables, or just the bubble machines? I've never played crapless craps, guess I better read up on the rules.
all I know is I am a very small gambler (like outside of poker less than $600 a trip) and I got comp nights offers for Red Rock, Treasure Island, Fontainebleau and Palms. Palms is just a newbie teaser but the others are not
by JimL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59214362#post59214362)
Having been in Vegas a few weeks ago, I think it is definitely slower. There are less people no doubt.
isn't December and January the slowest time every year?
by pig4bill m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215265#post59215265)
Yikes, is that on tables, or just the bubble machines? I've never played crapless craps, guess I better read up on the rules.
Tables. I am not aware of any crapless craps machines yet, but it seems a logical next step. They could pay 6:5 for 7 on come out roll, similar to odds bets for 6/8. That would reduce house edge to 1.98%. Not holding my breath for that to happen.
there are some crapless bubble machines, some may be at higher limits. There is no 'don't pass' and the payouts are similar. Can't get past a 12 can be the point. No thanks.
by PokerHero77 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215533#post59215533)
Tables. I am not aware of any crapless craps machines yet, but it seems a logical next step. They could pay 6:5 for 7 on come out roll, similar to odds bets for 6/8. That would reduce house edge to 1.98%. Not holding my breath for that to happen.
I've seen crapless craps on bubble machine on youtube.
No don't pass/don't come bet changes complexion of the game quite a bit. What makes games like Baccarat and traditional Craps appealing is the appearance of fairness as a player may choose to bet either side. They could add a don't pass/don't come bet a couple different ways: -initial bet is lost on 7 come out, otherwise the bet is reduced in half and the other half is returned to the player. That bet would be house edge of 3.12%; -8% commission for any don't pass/don't come bet paid directly to house. So $100 action would require player to give dealer $108. That would give house edge of 2.82%. Likewise a 7% commission would yield 1.74% house edge. They could also do goofy stuff like declaring 2 and 12 on come out "no action", refunding bet to player. I don't want to give them any ideas though. And I doubt players would like any of those methods.
Not to derail more, but crapless craps was initially introduced via trademark and copyright in Vegas (from what some old heads told me), at Vegas world, which is now the Strat. The entire reason and purpose was to deter big bankroll DP/DC players, and to create less DP/DC players since they would never see those bets being made. Fast forwarding at one point multiple casinos DID allow a lay bet on the 2,3,11,12. at 7-for-6 or 4-for-3. What happened was large bankroll players were at the table doing this and only paying the vig. Now almost all have stopped allowing a lay because of the All Tall Small bonus bet. Lays on outside would allow a hedge. Also crapless craps machines are all over.
by Langdon m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59215516#post59215516)
by JimL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59214362#post59214362)
Having been in Vegas a few weeks ago, I think it is definitely slower. There are less people no doubt.
isn't December and January the slowest time every year?
Yes it is. I haven't played poker in a month or so but last week I stopped by the sports book bar next to the Bellagio poker room and the room was so empty for a Friday night it was scary lol.
by BadLieutenant m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59217031#post59217031)
Yes it is. I haven't played poker in a month or so but last week I stopped by the sports book bar next to the Bellagio poker room and the room was so empty for a Friday night it was scary lol.
Don't worry. The games running are as juicy as ever according to some here. U only need 1 table to play.
One data point: The Aria poker room was nutz this past Saturday night. I put my name on the 1/3 list around 9pm, with a few names and several call-ins before me. Within minutes, a new game started, and within minutes of that (like, before we dealt a hand?), another game was being called, too. Lists were long, but moving, at least at the lower levels.
by AzOther1 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59217481#post59217481)
One data point: The Aria poker room was nutz this past Saturday night. I put my name on the 1/3 list around 9pm, with a few names and several call-ins before me. Within minutes, a new game started, and within minutes of that (like, before we dealt a hand?), another game was being called, too. Lists were long, but moving, at least at the lower levels.
Yeah, if any poker rooms close, more people will go to Aria, Wynn and Venetian.
by Hell2Heaven m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59216506#post59216506)
Not to derail more, but crapless craps was initially introduced via trademark and copyright in Vegas (from what some old heads told me), at Vegas world, which is now the Strat.The entire reason and purpose was to deter big bankroll DP/DC players, and to create less DP/DC players since they would never see those bets being made.Fast forwarding at one point multiple casinos DID a... See full post
IIRC Bob Stupak (who owned Vegas World) brought in crapless craps around the time he had double exposure 21. (I was told David invented crapless craps but that was incorrect) Stupak was continually looking for novelties to attract patrons to his smallish casino, which was neither on the strip nor in downtown, but on that wierd corner of Main and LV. Crapless craps had a similar attraction to double exposure 21, that is "crapless" implying the player is getting the best of it because the shooter can't lose on the first roll. Similar to double exposure, crapless craps never caught on and the game faded into obscurity until the last few years. Like 6:5 BJ, crapless craps will likely force out traditional craps. Accountants probably consider a crapless table earning as much as 4 traditional tables. Hence the motivation for removing 4 traditional tables and replacing with 1 (maybe 2) crapless tables. Saving on staff, freeing up space for higher earn games, and forcing value gamblers to play somewhere else, or to play higher house edge games.
Yes it should be the anti-ice protestors will be doing an economic blackout of Las Vegas, no one gambles until we get ice out of Las Vegas
Giving this a bump for any updates. Summer is traditionally slow in Vegas (113 degrees will have that effect.) But does it seem slower than normal for summer, from those who've done summer in Vegas before?
I was there most of June, and can confirm the cash waiting lists at the big rooms was noticeably more manageable than it’s been in previous recent years. Seems like food prices at convenient places is creeping up, too. But it’s not so bad that I wouldn’t consider going. The game quality was fine.
by TJ Eckleburg12 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59373059#post59373059)
I was there most of June, and can confirm the cash waiting lists at the big rooms was noticeably more manageable than it’s been in previous recent years. Seems like food prices at convenient places is creeping up, too. But it’s not so bad that I wouldn’t consider going. The game quality was fine.
A couple of things to consider, pro, con, or just neutral.
by JimL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375111#post59375111)
A couple of things to consider, pro, con, or just neutral.1. Vegas traffic is down. Not significantly, but still less traffic than recent years.2. Vegas hotel rates are slightly down on average.3. Vegas casino revenues are slightly up. 4. Combining the first three points shows that Vegas is in the middle of the K shaped economy. It is making most of it's revenue off of the ric... See full post
As for F1 hurting local regs. Yes, it does. That said, local regs are not moneymakers for a casino. There are two attributes about local regs that are important to casinos. One, they are consistent. They show up regularly (by definition). In the non-poker world they show up consistently and lose a little bit but not a lot. The second attribute is that they are comp chasers. Local regulars will grind out every single benefit offered. That is their right, but it also means they are not very profitable from the casinos perspective. That is fine to help the casino keep it's lights on day to day, but it sucks on really busy weekends when all of the video poker games are taken up, the locals are playing $.25 a spin and crowding out the rich tourists who want to play $1, $5, or even $25 a spin. Vegas loves rich people who come, get a comped room, gamble lots and lots of money, earn tons of rewards points, and then lets them expire because they don't use them before they expire in 6 months. Players who don't ask for 4 "free" waters 120 days of the year. Players who do not maximize the comps available to them. F1 attracts those type of players. As for poker, given that poker is generally not a money maker for the casino and poker revenues (net expenses) are next to nothing, local regs are both a boon and a blessing. They help keep the room running, they keep games running that wouldn't exist based just on tourists, they also spend every comp dollar. They drink lots of "free" coffees and beers. The crowd tourists on waiting lists, etc. They are a mixed bag to Strip poker rooms. For F1, it is more profitable for casinos to cater to the crazy rich tourists over the local regs. The concentration of rich tourists to too attractive for casinos to ignore. My advice to local regs during F1 would be to plan your vacation around that time. Enjoy the other 48 weeks of the year where you have easy access to easy poker games and let it go. Or, jump through all of the hoops required and play in what are very likely very juicy games and deal with it. Oddly enough, I have been in Vegas the last two F1s. The first I was there for a month. I knew F1 was going to be a shitshow so I intentionally went down to Laughlin for the weekend and rented out the condo I was staying in. The second was an accident. I was there with my wife for a couple of weeks. She was having a friend come during the weekend of F1. They were going to do lots of hiking and such. Her friend was going to stay in the condo with us. It was going to be awkward, so I ended up going to Laughlin y myself again for the weekend (Thurs to Sunday). Both times the poker in Laughlin was incredibly juicy.
I would think the action on the poker tables would be spectacular during F1. If I lived in Vegas, I'd try to be there every night it was running. Am I missing something? by JimL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59375127#post59375127)
As for F1 hurting local regs. Yes, it does. That said, local regs are not moneymakers for a casino.There are two attributes about local regs that are important to casinos. One, they are consistent. They show up regularly (by definition). In the non-poker world they show up consistently and lose a little bit but not a lot. The second attribute is that they are comp chasers. Loc... See full post
That's only if you're on the pass line which is a bad bet unless you're rolling, and if you're rolling you better keep that line bet to the lowest you can go! Now if you're not on the line then crapless craps is the way to go only by a very small fractional percent and that's the truth!
Vegas has conventions and events going on all the time and those bring in visitors with money to spend. The games are usually not amazing. The Strip is always trying to bring in people with money to spend. Sure on average F1 brings in bigger spenders but there’s no guarantee the games will be super great IMO.
by BBMW m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59381007#post59381007)
I would think the action on the poker tables would be spectacular during F1. If I lived in Vegas, I'd try to be there every night it was running. Am I missing something?
The games are pretty good from what I hear (never played myself). Perhaps even spectacular. The problem is that it takes a lot of extra time to get to the strip and a player will have to jump through a lot of hoops. There are road closures, iffy parking, and such. Furthermore, even if you make it to the casino you have to fight the lists. Basically half the players in Vegas are Seven Stars (or whatever the equivalent is at other casinos). I had a friend who tried to play at Caesars last F1 and spent an hour at the top of the $1/$3 list because Seven Star players kept showing up and jumping ahead of him.
I was there last year for F1. The games were not good. The strip was dead because of all the security making it hard to get in and out, let alone even trying to cross the street.
by JimL m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59396916#post59396916)
The games are pretty good from what I hear (never played myself). Perhaps even spectacular. The problem is that it takes a lot of extra time to get to the strip and a player will have to jump through a lot of hoops. There are road closures, iffy parking, and such. Furthermore, even if you make it to the casino you have to fight the lists. Basically half the players in Vegas are... See full post
$20 trick works in the poker room for 1/3….no way I would wait on the list at any of the big rooms with big list (horseshoe/caesars/bellagio/aria/venetian/wynn). If there are players who don’t think $20 is worth it during busy season then wait. The $20 obv doesn’t work for local spots and limits where everyone knows every name on the list…but 1/3 or 2/5 you can jump right to the front for $20…
I recently stopped by Mandalay Bay poker room for the first time in nearly 20 years to check out the place and try the $225 high hand per hour in the morning. I was shocked at how far that room has gone downhill. First, I was shocked at how dimly lit the poker room was, and it didn't even get better at the table. I literally had trouble seeing the difference between clubs and spades at a distance. Then the felt was the worst I have seen. The dealers had to hurl the cards to get them to move half an inch across the felt and even adjusting the cards to look at them was a task each time. Then I found out about the bs rules on the high hand, where bravo shows Jacks full to qualify but you must have a pair in your hand. lol That makes it much harder with one table going. I don't understand how a major corporation like MGM can just totally ignore the poker room, just shut it down already, they already close on Tuesdays lol.
by parisron m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59416908#post59416908)
I recently stopped by Mandalay Bay poker room for the first time in nearly 20 years to check out the place and try the $225 high hand per hour in the morning. I was shocked at how far that room has gone downhill. First, I was shocked at how dimly lit the poker room was, and it didn't even get better at the table. I literally had trouble seeing the difference between clubs and s... See full post
by parisron m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59416908#post59416908)
I recently stopped by Mandalay Bay poker room for the first time in nearly 20 years to check out the place and try the $225 high hand per hour in the morning. I was shocked at how far that room has gone downhill. First, I was shocked at how dimly lit the poker room was, and it didn't even get better at the table. I literally had trouble seeing the difference between clubs and s... See full post
The management at Mandalay Bay does not care about poker. Literally. In fact they would prefer not to have a poker room and all of the accompanying hassle. However, to be considered a 5 star resort a casino has to meet certain requirements. Some of those requirements are weird like having so many live plants on each floor. Other requirements are offering certain games like traditional baccarat and having a poker room. So a resort like MB is going to go through the motions to meet the requirements. They will do what they can to offer up poker without really be serious about it.
Yea, I heard and believed that saying for years, but it's not true.
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Through most of Las Vegas' history, a poker room was not considered important. Steve Wynn didn't want to put in a poker room when the Mirage opened. After the Moneymaker boom, there was a period of time where it was considered a part of the mix like the "all you can eat buffet" and the coffee shop. Ever since Las Vegas moved from being a gambling destination to an entertainment hub, poker rooms are surviving mainly from inertia.