Bellagio (Las Vegas, NV)

Why can't a billion dollar casino put cup holders on or in their poker tables?

Did the Bellagio add an extra table section in the Sportsbook this year? If so, how many extra tables?

There were a few tables in the sportsbook I saw yesterday, didn't count.

by parisron m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58589558#post58589558)

There were a few tables in the sportsbook I saw yesterday, didn't count.

Thanks.

There's a Thread that just popped up about a 'Chop or No Chop' mandate in this Room. Not sure if it's per Player or per table, but once it's established whether you Chop or Not it has to remain that for the duration of your session. GL

by answer20 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58590475#post58590475)

There's a Thread that just popped up about a 'Chop or No Chop' mandate in this Room. Not sure if it's per Player or per table, but once it's established whether you Chop or Not it has to remain that for the duration of your session. GL

Where did thus thread pop up?

by Fore m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58590604#post58590604)

Where did thus thread pop up?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/108/l... (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/108/las-vegas-lifestyle/bellagio-has-policy-where-you-must-adhere-your-chop-dont-chop-policy-1838106/#post58590590)

by answer20 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58590475#post58590475)

There's a Thread that just popped up about a 'Chop or No Chop' mandate in this Room. Not sure if it's per Player or per table, but once it's established whether you Chop or Not it has to remain that for the duration of your session. GL

Hasn't this always been the case??

When I called today to get some clarification I didn't ask if this was 'new'. The Floor did state that it is written into the Room Rules. I think the fuss with the Thread is that it's really not something that you would expect run into, with most Players being shocked or caught off guard at a minimum. As with everything in poker, no matter the rule there will be opinions on both sides. It does sort of fit in with another non-standard rule that I've heard was (or is) in play at Bellagio. I had been told, and seen in these forums, that if a Player verbalized "You're good" at Showdown then their hand was dead. This was to prevent a Player who was supposed to show first from tricking the other Players into showing their cards instead of mucking. (I probably should've asked about that as well). GL

Good to know, headed there to stay for the first time in a couple of weeks!

I’ve seen 40-80 stud 8 go somewhat frequently there recently on the bravo and today there is 50-100 stud 8 going. Has this been a regular thing? It seemed like it was going before wsop also. I love stud 8 and would be interested in potentially checking it out if it’s decent action.

i was here last week, and several times someone switched to not chopping when it fell down to 4 or 5 handed (and told me before hand), and i didnt see any ruling against that. Of course I didnt have any problem with it, i guess if i did maybe the floor wouldve forced them to stay the course.

by Tomark m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58594740#post58594740)

i was here last week, and several times someone switched to not chopping when it fell down to 4 or 5 handed (and told me before hand), and i didnt see any ruling against that. Of course I didnt have any problem with it, i guess if i did maybe the floor wouldve forced them to stay the course.

To be fair though, the rule is likely intended against "I chop unless I got Aces" type of player rather than "I chop unless the game gets really short" one.

by Tomark m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58594740#post58594740)

i was here last week, and several times someone switched to not chopping when it fell down to 4 or 5 handed (and told me before hand), and i didnt see any ruling against that. Of course I didnt have any problem with it, i guess if i did maybe the floor wouldve forced them to stay the course.

Chopping in a 4 handed game sounds awful. At some tables if players still chop then a lot more situations will come up when you have a chance to chop (because half the time you’re one of the blinds). If players chop then they might not be playing much poker, and the casino wouldn’t collect much rake.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58619375#post58619375)

Chopping in a 4 handed game sounds awful. At some tables if players still chop then a lot more situations will come up when you have a chance to chop (because half the time you’re one of the blinds). If players chop then they might not be playing much poker, and the casino wouldn’t collect much rake.

Not really much of a problem. The players who will chop 4 handed probably won’t play more than 3 hands before asking to break the table.

I went to the bellagio once but i didnt see anyone in bobbys room

Just checked Bravo and Bellagio is back to 15-30, 30-60 and five are on the list for 60-120 limit hold’em. I wonder why they made the change.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58857799#post58857799)

Just checked Bravo and Bellagio is back to 15-30, 30-60 and five are on the list for 60-120 limit hold’em. I wonder why they made the change.

I thought it was better when the games were that way in the past. At the time they also officially had an 8-16 game, but I never saw it go. Then they switched to offering 10-20, 20-40, and 40-80, I guess hoping people would move up, but they actually moved down - the 15 players moved to 10, the 30 players moved to 20, and the 40 rarely went except for during the WSOP. Then the 10-20 started dying. As a last ditch effort they switched it to 9-18, but that didn't help for long, and it completely died. I don't know much about how the games have been since Covid - only have been there once since then, and there was both a 20-40 and a 40-80 game going. Maybe someone more regular can say what has been happening lately.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58858043#post58858043)

I thought it was better when the games were that way in the past. At the time they also officially had an 8-16 game, but I never saw it go. Then they switched to offering 10-20, 20-40, and 40-80, I guess hoping people would move up, but they actually moved down - the 15 players moved to 10, the 30 players moved to 20, and the 40 rarely went except for during the WSOP. Then t... See full post

Interesting. I’ve only played NL in the room the past couple of days but they definitely changed the limit games to 15-30, 30-60, etc. I know I’ve seen Orleans run some 8-16 since the Bellagio 10-20 died but lately I don’t think it has run much.

I'm at the Bellagio regularly and hadn't heard any rumors about this. Though, I can't imagine the staff didn't talk with the regular limit players in advance. 20-40 runs every day. But, it has been harder to get 40-80 to run for a while. Sometimes two 20-40's go and has many players in it who would prefer to play in a 40-80 (or even 80-160). I do know I've heard a couple regulars talking how they were winning the same at 30-60 (years earlier) as they were at 40-80.

I’ve also noticed the 40-80 hadn’t been running as much before the change.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58859573#post58859573)

I do know I've heard a couple regulars talking how they were winning the same at 30-60 (years earlier) as they were at 40-80.

No ****, the 30 game was a ton softer due to the years it was active.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58857799#post58857799)

Just checked Bravo and Bellagio is back to 15-30, 30-60 and five are on the list for 60-120 limit hold’em. I wonder why they made the change.

They made the change because they're hoping it'll bring more limit games into the room. But in my opinion, and I've now talked in detail with Bellagio top poker management, it's a mistake. The problem is that the proportionally larger small blind upsets the balance of luck and skill in the game. It causes the recreational players to play way too many hands out of the blinds when the pot has already been raised, speeds up the whole game, and the recreational players lose their money too fast. So even though there may be more games in the short run, I believe it'll damage the game in the long run. It may be hard to believe that this small change may cause this, but, again in my opinion, you'll have less games a year from now than what they currently have. Also, this is a very slow time of year, and that's probably a contributor to why the $40-$80 game hasn't run as much.

How do you think this will speed up the games?

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58860741#post58860741)

How do you think this will speed up the games?

You get more calls of raises out of the blinds which creates bigger pots which means more raising on the flop and turns.

by Mason Malmuth m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58860753#post58860753)

You get more calls of raises out of the blinds which creates bigger pots which means more raising on the flop and turns.

Oh I thought you meant more hands happening per hour, when it seemed to me it would be the opposite.

Bad players tend to play too many hands already. I don't understand how making loose play less bad will give them a greater skill disadvantage, it seems like it will even the playing field and punish nits.

by CrazyLond m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58860904#post58860904)

Bad players tend to play too many hands already. I don't understand how making loose play less bad will give them a greater skill disadvantage, it seems like it will even the playing field and punish nits.

You want the recreational players to lose the maximum in the long run. If you upset the balance of luck and skill so that their loss rate is too high, many of them will quit before they lose the maximum. That's not good for the poker room, and it's not good for the better players. See my Cardrooms book for more discussion: https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everyth... (https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everything-Better-Analysis-Improvement/dp/1880685647/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.g_vZI45DliIgdFYUIHagfu8YXgw9Fkz0ilj0CoHJsMtydsL4eausrjsnOJElckVdJMpgzkWS8VWKhyh-Vw2D5nzVx3ZH2kiYRwWzSyeHSTimkv0zzeGCQw08kJH3Wl9m2CSIbPjc9jwbGhkWZTcnFKhcLJhsYbpZekUkw9tv6_Dvpa-LKpNHj7BdEqbSTWiwZyTscILc_uIKw06NoPp11lhT8Zm0ISxMJMCr0GKKImw.qSXj00QAoq6axe12JYQbe1QwlrF4-FNL4If5yxXjDjA&qid=1737144772&sr=1-11)

The Bellagio tends to get two or three limit games per day. Given the small player pool of locals (~60-70% of the pool?) and tourists which fill the games, it doesn't seem like a theoretical disadvantage of this blind structure will have any practical impact on these games.

Bellagio raked games are going to a $6 take, effective today.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58862725#post58862725)

The Bellagio tends to get two or three limit games per day. Given the small player pool of locals (~60-70% of the pool?) and tourists which fill the games, it doesn't seem like a theoretical disadvantage of this blind structure will have any practical impact on these games.

I believe a lot of the problem is that in small stakes limit hold 'em the rake is now too high to develop a core of regular players who would then feed into higher stakes games. (This isn't yet true in the small stakes no-limit games but if the rake keeps going up it eventually will be.) A poker room should, in general (in my opinion), be like a pyramid in the sense that as the stakes gets higher you should see less games than those at the lower stakes. For instance, right now at The Bellagio (where they recently made a change in the structure of their limit hold 'em games) we're seeing more $30-$60 games than $15-$30 games. and sometimes it's difficult to start the $15-$30 games and/or keep it going, and this happens when the $30-$60 game(s) is strong. Thus an inverse pyramid is being created. I know from discussion with management that they were concerned the $40-$80 game wasn't consistent enough. Thus the change. I also believe that the management in The Bellagio is trying to do the right thing and wants more limit games, and that they'll be watching the results of this experiment closely. But I also think that this "fix" is not the fix they should be pursuing since the 2 chip / three chip structure, again in my opinion, burns the games out too fast. And the fix that they, in my opinion, should be pursuing is to introduce lower limit hold 'em games with a much reduced rake than what poker rooms are currently collecting. Of course, this fix won't immediately create more games, but in time it should help to create a core of regular players of which some will move up to higher stakes games. By the way, and I'm just going to come right out and say this, I'm someone with a strong background in mathematical statistics (see my Gambling Theory book if you have any doubts) and have collected data and studied this stuff at a detailed level which the large majority of poker players and poker managers don't understand. I'm happy to discuss this in more detail with anyone in poker room management. For more discussion, see my Cardrooms book: https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everyth... (https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everything-Better-Analysis-Improvement/dp/1880685647/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TUR1hscodzVLtITy5YWVpOIaI32Zr8UCrA2XqHsnkVhBqiVKYiAEyOWQs3AJMGOX5Di6nuPY7fVUgU1gf9Mon1bQT4DErCOfHqJ1vvxcBo6gGzpVlZ65GqEXh-1xWDmzxxt-3wJMQX-JcXY-MUkD5dGnTkodQs9YQahBAekOQ9mMROJbi2Zg0jy8g5FwZ8nP1uSMe9qCJxnDKiD-aq_L4MUMwLuD1HnjWSgeSafDEUk.D7-bDsgytYR8nYzKZgyN651Lk1qasbJY3iSQT7BKhsQ&qid=1739210112&sr=1-1)

Surprised nobody has yet mentioned the negative impact on the game from pots appearing smaller and "less fun" in a three-chip game vs. a four-chip game. People used to talk about that all the time as a reason why four-chip games are better. I also think four-chip games are more prevalent these days among midstakes, so players are just kind of more used to throwing out sets of four chips and the play feels better to them that way. These sort of soft factors matter a little, I think. I'd bet that come WSOP the games will be back to 20 and 40, even if just temporarily.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58890642#post58890642)

Surprised nobody has yet mentioned the negative impact on the game from pots appearing smaller and "less fun" in a three-chip game vs. a four-chip game. People used to talk about that all the time as a reason why four-chip games are better.

People talk about a lot of things that aren't necessarily true or accurate.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58890642#post58890642)

Surprised nobody has yet mentioned the negative impact on the game from pots appearing smaller and "less fun" in a three-chip game vs. a four-chip game. People used to talk about that all the time as a reason why four-chip games are better. I also think four-chip games are more prevalent these days among midstakes, so players are just kind of more used to throwing out sets of f... See full post

I don't agree that the pots are smaller in this structure, and that's part of the problem. (The small blind now plays more hands which encourages other players to play more hands.) I do agree that they'll probably go back to the $20-$40 structure by the time the WSOP comes around, but not for the reason you give. I also have no inside information on this and could certainly be wrong.

by Mason Malmuth m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58890882#post58890882)

I don't agree that the pots are smaller in this structure, and that's part of the problem. (The small blind now plays more hands which encourages other players to play more hands.)I do agree that they'll probably go back to the $20-$40 structure by the time the WSOP comes around, but not for the reason you give. I also have no inside information on this and could certainly be w... See full post

I don't mean the pots are bigger in terms of bets, I mean they appear to be bigger. Even if a two-chip SB increases pot sizes, it would need to do so by 33% for the pot to appear as large as a pot in a four-chip game. And I just don't buy that a two-chip SB results in an average 33% increase in total pot sizes. I mean, we agree that a four-chip structure is better. I'm just arguing that on the margins, one of the reasons why a four-chip game is better is that it is perceived as more actiony, which is net good for the game.

I've always thought that was a myth. I used to sometimes play in a $5/10 LHE game with $5 chips, and there was plenty of action.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58891216#post58891216)

I've always thought that was a myth. I used to sometimes play in a $5/10 LHE game with $5 chips, and there was plenty of action.

Myth or not. Often heard that is why limit games were 4/8 6/12 8/16.

by Fore m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58891311#post58891311)

Myth or not. Often heard that is why limit games were 4/8 6/12 8/16.

They used to have 4/8 at the Tropicana in Atlantic City, and most players bought in for mostly $5 chips. The game was still very loose. It was amazing seeing 8 players limp in preflop by betting a $5 chip and then the dealer having to make change and give them each back a $1 chip.

I would be shocked if Bellagio went back to 20-40 and 40-80. Management didn't make this change casually. They talked to their regular players about it in advance and had their support.

Does this regular $5-$5 PLO Double Board game usually run hi-Lo or hi only?

It's high only.

by 2xanman m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58891491#post58891491)

Does this regular $5-$5 PLO Double Board game usually run hi-Lo or hi only?

Heck let’s make it 6-card, double board, hi/lo PLO. We’ll get 4 hands per down. Maybe 3.

When I played it, it was a mix of high only and high/low ultimate. Unless it has changed recently, it is different on different nights (most nights it’s played high only but some nights it’s s mix). The schedule is in the bravo.

by Jeffage m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58892644#post58892644)

When I played it, it was a mix of high only and high/low ultimate. Unless it has changed recently, it is different on different nights (most nights it’s played high only but some nights it’s s mix). The schedule is in the bravo.

Hi/lo ultimate, if I'm understanding it correctly, sounds like it would be a huge pain to determine winners.

In my experience playing and dealing, hi/lo ultimate is exponentially easier to deal than hi/lo dbbp

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58891216#post58891216)

I've always thought that was a myth. I used to sometimes play in a $5/10 LHE game with $5 chips, and there was plenty of action.

I remember hearing that 5/10 LHE in Vegas was surprisingly soft for the stakes. But that was at least around 20 years ago.

by 2xanman m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58892763#post58892763)

In my experience playing and dealing, hi/lo ultimate is exponentially easier to deal than hi/lo dbbp

Would that be 4 winners? That also sounds terrible, but I didn't know it existed.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58893629#post58893629)

I remember hearing that 5/10 LHE in Vegas was surprisingly soft for the stakes. But that was at least around 20 years ago.

Eh, I'll see another card, it's just one chip!

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58893648#post58893648)

Would that be 4 winners? That also sounds terrible, but I didn't know it existed.

Hi low ultimate is the best high hand across both boards splits with the best low hand across both board (hence ultimate). There is not a high and low winner on each board it’s the best overall high that is made and the best overall low that is made across both of the boards. And yes people make bad mistakes when they are counterfeited on one of the boards on the low side.

by Jeffage m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58893666#post58893666)

Hi low ultimate is the best high hand across both boards splits with the best low hand across both board (hence ultimate). There is not a high and low winner on each board it’s the best overall high that is made and the best overall low that is made across both of the boards. And yes people make bad mistakes when they are counterfeited on one of the boards on the low side.

Right, but I was asking 2xanman about the other game they mentioned.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58893648#post58893648)

Would that be 4 winners? That also sounds terrible, but I didn't know it existed.

Hi/Lo Ultimate is 2 pots, hi/lo dbbp is 4

...

by MSchu18 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58912154#post58912154)

...

<===

lol I'm thread marking again...

Epic bump, Not a fan of Bellagio poker, the staff is horrid. Dealers good. Food almost impossible. Selection bad.

and yet we all still go...

by MSchu18 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58914614#post58914614)

and yet we all still go...

It's the only place in Vegas to play LHE of any meaningful stakes. That's the only reason I have gone there.

by MSchu18 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58914614#post58914614)

and yet we all still go...

Speak for yourself, I live in Vegas and never bother going.

I did speak for myself, and many many others.

by MSchu18 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58915656#post58915656)

I did speak for myself, and many many others.

The room is clearly on a decline from what it was but okay, you the man.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58890642#post58890642)

I'd bet that come WSOP the games will be back to 20 and 40, even if just temporarily.

by Mason Malmuth m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58890882#post58890882)

I do agree that they'll probably go back to the $20-$40 structure by the time the WSOP comes around, but not for the reason you give. I also have no inside information on this and could certainly be wrong.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58891443#post58891443)

I would be shocked if Bellagio went back to 20-40 and 40-80. Management didn't make this change casually. They talked to their regular players about it in advance and had their support.

Today I was shocked. The Bellagio is running 20-40 and 40-80 again.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59124017#post59124017)

Today I was shocked. The Bellagio is running 20-40 and 40-80 again.

It just changed today? I was just talking to someone who had been to Vegas recently and said they were running 30-60. Before this change back, had they been running 15-30, or anything lower than 30-60?

Yes, they were running 15-30.

Good change imo. The 15-30 didn’t run much and when it did it was shaky and just held together by people waiting for 30-60. The 30-60 folks can play 40. I think way more likely they will have both 20 and 40 at same time and if not the 20 be stronger than the 30 bc it has a bigger player base so more likely to have multiple games.

Casino AZ was struggling with having a 20 and a 40 and one would start and then the other would start and break the first and just make a lot of hurt feelings. They went to 30 game but no 15 and it has helped a game go more frequently but I am afraid it will kill the feeder as jumping from 8/16 to 30/60 is huge and the LHE ecosystem will be dead soon in AZ :(

And as I told Bellagio top poker management back in January, the structure change from 2 chips, 4 chips to 2 chips, 3 chips would upset the balance of luck and skill and damage the games. The response I got (at that time) was that they would watch it and see what happens. I guess they had watched enough and now wisely made the switch back. I do think the games were damaged, and perhaps damaged by a lot. Hopefully, the games will, probably slowly, build back up. They also need, in my opinion, to offer lower limit hold 'em games with a reduced rake to help develop feeder games to the middle limit games. But I doubt very much that this will happen.

by Mason Malmuth m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59124424#post59124424)

And as I told Bellagio top poker management back in January, the structure change from 2 chips, 4 chips to 2 chips, 3 chips would upset the balance of luck and skill and damage the games. The response I got (at that time) was that they would watch it and see what happens. I guess they had watched enough and now wisely made the switch back.I do think the games were damaged, and ... See full post

I was in The Bellagio Poker Room yesterday and they had two $20-$40s and a $40-$80 going, and all three games were full. So even though this is a small sample size, I guess it's possible that there are some players who just didn't like the two chip/three chip structure and weren't playing. But now with the two chip/four chip structure they came back. Time will tell, but perhaps these games will recover faster than I thought was possible. By the way, poker room managers need to understand that what appears to be small changes in game structure can often have a significant impact on what happens to their games. So to this end, I'll again recommend my cardrooms book where much of this stuff is addressed, and I think every poker room manager should read it: https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everyth... (https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everything-Better-Analysis-Improvement/dp/1880685647/ref=sr_1_5?crid=22VAWZDOKF4F7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.g_vZI45DliIgdFYUIHagfry4c_onRZ3fyAsdsEwuDjmDlrK_k8cLb_yVsFxWYi7n7p7zx-KOxK7vJgsquqAXQIHZ3zB65gMFp5RlIUTIeYJMbiGLNDgFRkaLpKU_EnotpS839AieKM2VmaNQZhSlHZYFXQQ6KhsTzz8WX17mSqocFtFPe6jOrYHws1uZGbCCNoNQJlMZ_0pQkb-WOunVhKeI_LFOKSQdjMcgY3xMR8I.23fCOxxrerpqyIi_v3BWoSJrwMllS66Esx6RuklAzaA&dib_tag=se&keywords=mason+malmuth+poker&qid=1760290791&sprefix=mason+malmuth%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-5)

Today, I learned of a new Bellagio policy. Dealers are no longer allowed to hand shuffle without permission from a floor person. They also aren't allowed to reach into the hand shuffle machine and fix a deck which has become stuck. Basically, anytime the automatic shuffler doesn't work perfectly, it will be necessary to call the floor over to get permission to do whatever is necessary. So, even the most obvious fixes to easy problems are going to cause a delay before the next hand is dealt. This is not a policy created by poker room management. For some reason, it's coming from casino management. I heard there was some incident at Aria which has caused this. Does anyone know what happened at Aria? Or has something else caused this policy to be enacted?

That's a terrible change. Hopefully it will be so noticeably bad that it will be changed back quickly.

New limits for 1/3 and 2/5. Much needed, will be extremely interesting to see how the games change.

()

About time. Maybe next they'll do something about their awful staff.

by 411Heelhook m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282110#post59282110)

About time. Maybe next they'll do something about their awful staff.

Yes floor is notoriously bad sadly.

I've had pretty good experiences with the floor on the high limit side, especially if you accept that they're going to give the locals preferential treatment. One anecdotal example: During WSOP a few years back, during which the room is at peak chaos, I had called in and I was running late so I was going to get removed from the list for being on it for too long. I call and ask them to roll me and the floor goes out of the way to ask me how long I think I will be and instead rolled me to like 1/3 down the list. Keep in mind the lists are like 40+ deep. Hadn't even tipped the floor yet.

by MuckPls m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282094#post59282094)

New limits for 1/3 and 2/5. Much needed, will be extremely interesting to see how the games change.... See full post

Very interesting. I figured they would do that with the other rooms raising the buy-in amounts. With other rooms going to $1500 for 2-5 games the $500 limit for 2-5 was so tiny.

by MuckPls m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282094#post59282094)

New limits for 1/3 and 2/5. Much needed, will be extremely interesting to see how the games change.... See full post

I wonder why they did this. They have, I believe, more $1-$3 games and $2-$5 games than any other Las Vegas poker room. If something works, why fix it?

There were several dealers encouraging the change to management for a long time. Their basic logic was that it was too big a gap between the $500-max 2-5 game and the $2,500-max 5-10 game.

I will add that I liked the 2-5 game with the $500 max (despite the earlier comment I made about the max buy-in being tiny). So I’m not sure what to think of these changes. It might make the 2-5 game tougher. It was also a good game for players that want to move up in stakes but may not feel comfortable playing 2-5 somewhere else with a $1500 max.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282642#post59282642)

There were several dealers encouraging the change to management for a long time. Their basic logic was that it was too big a gap between the $500-max 2-5 game and the $2,500-max 5-10 game.

Thanks for the info. From my point of view their reasoning looks silly. Players had options to choose that are bigger than the previous Bellagio 2-5 game and smaller than the current Bellagio 5-10 game. The most obvious example is at Aria. The Aria runs 2-5 with a $1500 max. I guess the dealers don’t know or don’t care.

I played at Bellagio a few days ago and several dealers were pushing the table to play bomb pots for a hand each time there was a dealer change. I’ve seen the bomb pots in a few sessions this year but this time the dealers were trying much harder to get the table to play them. I’ll be back there soon but I was wondering if this is more common there now.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282673#post59282673)

I played at Bellagio a few days ago and several dealers were pushing the table to play bomb pots for a hand each time there was a dealer change. I’ve seen the bomb pots in a few sessions this year but this time the dealers were trying much harder to get the table to play them. I’ll be back there soon but I was wondering if this is more common there now.

The dealers make extra tips when a bomb pot is played. That answera that question. Also, my estimate is that a bomb pot takes three to four time as long to play as a regular no-limit hand. So, the Bellagio is costing themselves rake.

I generally agree that lower buy ins protect recreational players and keep the games better over time. However I think given the higher rake and inflation, 500 max works well at 1/3 and makes the game better. This is particularly important in room like where I ply where there is up to 3 each hand coming out for high hand jackpots. I know that’s not the case at bell but given their six dollar rake, the current value of money in the world and my experience play 1/3 500 max I think 500 works for 1/3 and doesn’t put recs at an enormous disadvantage. However for 2/5 where I play it is also 300-1000 max and this game is much tougher and attracts many more pros and serious players and the stacks often get very deep (which of course means recs are frequently killed). There is sometimes a four or 5-1 ratio of 1/3 to 2/5 games and while you can find good 2/5 there is a huge game quality difference. In an ideal world 200-800 would be a good buy in for 2-5 but 300-1000 has become too entrenched. That is why in my room I see many people not move up from 1/3 where if you had it structured like I’m saying I think it would make a big difference in terms of creating the beneficial pyramid Mason always talks about.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282670#post59282670)

I will add that I liked the 2-5 game with the $500 max (despite the earlier comment I made about the max buy-in being tiny). So I’m not sure what to think of these changes. It might make the 2-5 game tougher. It was also a good game for players that want to move up in stakes but may not feel comfortable playing 2-5 somewhere else with a $1500 max.

You can play Bellagio still with $500 cap, it’s just 1-3 instead of 2-5. I’d say lateral move with the 500 cap(same stakes) while potential to grab the less skilled 1-3 players in the game. I’ve adjusted at my local casino to often play 1-3 since caps were raised. Bankroll is fine for 2-5 at higher cap, but I’m a rec who wants better chance to win and as long as stacks aren’t all $100 shorties, 1-3 is fine with $500 cap. I’ll be likely to check out Bellagio again with this move.

by Jeffage m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282844#post59282844)

However for 2/5 where I play it is also 300-1000 max and this game is much tougher and attracts many more pros and serious players and the stacks often get very deep (which of course means recs are frequently killed). There is sometimes a four or 5-1 ratio of 1/3 to 2/5 games and while you can find good 2/5 there is a huge game quality difference. In an ideal world 200-800 wo... See full post

This is an interesting point. I think a lot depends on the poker room. To be specific, I play a lot at The Bellagio and recently, since it's close to where I live, I've been playing a fair amount at Green Valley Ranch Station Casino. Here's what I've noticed concerning the $1-$3 games (and GVR has the $200-$500 buy-in).

1. The best players at The Bellagio are much better than the best players at GVR.
2. The worst players at The Bellagio (the tourists) are much worst than the worst players at GVR.
3. Overall, the players at GVR are weaker than the players at The Bellagio. This says to me that the balance of luck and skill that a game needs to perpetuate is probably okay at GVR with the $500 max buy-in. But I suspect, because of the fact that the stronger players are much better at The Bellagio, this won't be the case (at The Bellagio). Also, I suspect, as you point out in your post, that The Bellagio will, over time, lose some of their $2-$5 games as the better players will realize that they'll be able to now make a similar amount at the $1-$3 as they use to make at the $2-$5 (with a $500 buy-in) but their fluctuations will be less. And another point. The Bellagio is encouraging a bomb pot for the first hand that a new dealer deals. Thai increases the luck factor (for the good players) in the game. Yet, at the same time, by having the larger buy-in they are now decreasing the luck factor for the good players. And when I say luck factor, I'm thinking in terms of the ratio of the win rate to the standard deviation in the short run.

by droopy0021 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282920#post59282920)

You can play Bellagio still with $500 cap, it's just 1-3 instead of 2-5. I'd say lateral move with the 500 cap(same stakes) while potential to grab the less skilled 1-3 players in the game. I've adjusted at my local casino to often play 1-3 since caps were raised. Bankroll is fine for 2-5 at higher cap, but I'm a rec who wants better chance to win and as long as stacks aren'... See full post

And while you may be more likely to play at The Bellagio because of this change, I suspect that many tourists will get wiped out too quickly and be less likely to come back and play again. If I'm correct, I question whether this is a trade off that The Bellagio wants to make.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282642#post59282642)

There were several dealers encouraging the change to management for a long time. Their basic logic was that it was too big a gap between the $500-max 2-5 game and the $2,500-max 5-10 game.

This is going to sound bad, but what do dealers know about the "proper balance of luck and skill?" I hope that The Bellagio Poker Room Management, or any poker room management for that matter, is not listening to their dealers on how to run their poker room.

by Mason Malmuth m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59283054#post59283054)

This is an interesting point. I think a lot depends on the poker room. To be specific, I play a lot at The Bellagio and recently, since it's close to where I live, I've been playing a fair amount at Green Valley Ranch Station Casino. Here's what I've noticed concerning the $1-$3 games (and GVR has the $200-$500 buy-in).1. The best players at The Bellagio are much better than th... See full post

Agree with almost all of this except the bomb pots. While they are probably bad for the game overall, I don’t think they increase the luck factor for skilled players (I.e. those who understand the strategic concepts governing how to play them since they have a huge advantage over those who overvalue a good hand on one board etc.). So assuming there are bad players in the game it further increases the edge for skilled players (in addition to what they gain from the larger buy in). Maybe we are saying something similar in that it does increase variance but honestly you can play them in such a way that you virtually always have a freeroll or giant equity edge when you put money in the pot so the only variance is having to ante something; that’s a slight exaggeration but you can see what I am saying). So basically all the changes they are making will have more money going to better players and fewer winnging sessions for bad players, if there is a room on the strip that can sustain it though it is probably Bellagio as they have much more random walk in traffic than virtually anywhere else.

by Jeffage m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59283339#post59283339)

Agree with almost all of this except the bomb pots. While they are probably bad for the game overall, I don’t think they increase the luck factor for skilled players (I.e. those who understand the strategic concepts governing how to play them since they have a huge advantage over those who overvalue a good hand on one board etc.). So assuming there are bad players in the... See full post

Okay. While bomb pots may increase the EV for excellent players, they also increase, in the short run, the standard deviation for these same players, and I think the standard deviation goes up more. again in the short run than the EV. Thus, that should increase the luck factor. Remember, in the long run, the effect of variance dissipates. Also, at The Bellagio, almost all the bomb pots are PLO, and this is the case in the no-limit games. I think this reduces the effect on bad players who are too often playing just one way. Whether I'm correct or not on the specifics above, the bottom line for me is that I think that poker rooms that spread bomb pots are foolish to do so.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282673#post59282673)

I played at Bellagio a few days ago and several dealers were pushing the table to play bomb pots for a hand each time there was a dealer change. I’ve seen the bomb pots in a few sessions this year but this time the dealers were trying much harder to get the table to play them. I’ll be back there soon but I was wondering if this is more common there now.

I will be there for a couple of weeks during the WSOP and Bellagio is my home for cash games while in Las Vegas. It was time for the Buy-in increase. I think the changes are good No need to go any higher. I do not play bomb pots, so I appreciate the heads up on that.

by Steve00007 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282673#post59282673)

I played at Bellagio a few days ago and several dealers were pushing the table to play bomb pots for a hand each time there was a dealer change. I’ve seen the bomb pots in a few sessions this year but this time the dealers were trying much harder to get the table to play them. I’ll be back there soon but I was wondering if this is more common there now.

I played a few sessions at the Bell 2/5 game a couple months ago, and the dealers basically have a good hustle going where they do a bomb pot of $11 per player at dealer change, except only $10 per player goes into the pot, while the last $1 per player gets automatically tipped to the dealer. So at a full table, the dealer gets an $8 tip at the start of their down essentially. That's the reason the dealers push the table to do bomb pots. I'm not against tipping dealers when I win a pot, but it seems silly to me to pre-tip the dealers 10ish% of the starting pot, while also having to pay full rake on that pot. That kind of thing doesn't fly at the bigger games (never seen that at 5/10 during the bomb pots), but lower stakes players are generally either clueless or just don't care that that 15% of the starting pot is getting raked/tipped out.

by thebigswoot m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59300834#post59300834)

I played a few sessions at the Bell 2/5 game a couple months ago, and the dealers basically have a good hustle going where they do a bomb pot of $11 per player at dealer change, except only $10 per player goes into the pot, while the last $1 per player gets automatically tipped to the dealer. So at a full table, the dealer gets an $8 tip at the start of their down essentially. ... See full post

At 1/3 games people are tipping $1 out of $6. But I think players view it as tipping an extra $2 an hour out of their stack. I didn’t know until very recently that MGM is also doing the PLO bomb pots. A dealer told me they started doing it about a year ago, stopped doing it, and players complained so they brought it back.

by thebigswoot m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59300834#post59300834)

I played a few sessions at the Bell 2/5 game a couple months ago, and the dealers basically have a good hustle going where they do a bomb pot of $11 per player at dealer change, except only $10 per player goes into the pot, while the last $1 per player gets automatically tipped to the dealer. So at a full table, the dealer gets an $8 tip at the start of their down essentially. ... See full post

I think this may have changed. The last couple of times I played at The Bellagio, several dealers explained that if three (or more) players didn't want to play the bomb pot, the bomb pot wouldn't happen. By the way, one of the dealers told me she didn't like dealing them, and I suspect that more dealers feel this way. Also, do the dealers really make extra tips with bomb pots? They're now almost always PLO bomb pots, even though the game is no-limit hold 'em, and they take, in my judgement at least three times as long to play as a regular no-limit hand. And if some players don't participate in them, the extra tip money that the dealer gets may not be as much as it appears.

by Mason Malmuth m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59302276#post59302276)

Things must have changed recently then, because when I played those 2/5 sessions, the bomb pots were always NLHE.

by thebigswoot m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59306181#post59306181)

Things must have changed recently then, because when I played those 2/5 sessions, the bomb pots were always NLHE.

I played there two days ago and the bomb pots were PLO.

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59282642#post59282642)

There were several dealers encouraging the change to management for a long time. Their basic logic was that it was too big a gap between the $500-max 2-5 game and the $2,500-max 5-10 game.

Bellagio used to have a 5/T/1000 game that I thought was cool and good action, and a stake low enough I could occasionally play that had time rake. I feel like with rake reaching $6/hand, $300 max games oughta die, but bellagio had interesting/unique/old school structures which had intermediate step between the more common structures othee casinos offered, so its still a bummer.

by Tomark m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59307721#post59307721)

a 5/T/1000 game

shudder

by thebigswoot m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59306181#post59306181)

Things must have changed recently then, because when I played those 2/5 sessions, the bomb pots were always NLHE.

I did see NLHE bomb pots in the 2/5 game around 2-3 months ago, but that was before the change to PLO.

by Tomark m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59307721#post59307721)

Bellagio used to have a 5/T/1000 game that I thought was cool and good action, and a stake low enough I could occasionally play that had time rake. I feel like with rake reaching $6/hand, $300 max games oughta die, but bellagio had interesting/unique/old school structures which had intermediate step between the more common structures othee casinos offered, so its still a bumme... See full post

They have changed their buy-ins. The $1-$3 is now $500 and the $2-$5 is now $1,000.

Is Bellagio doing tables in the sportsbook again this year or did the World Cup nuke that this year?

A dealer told me the sportsbook tables will be added in the coming week.

Was in Vegas for a conference and to play some poker last week and stayed at the Bellagio. Hotel: 10/10 2 5 NL was a bit lower on action and played smaller than 2 5 games in Philly (where I am from and usually play) despite the newly increased limits. In fact I have not seen too many players buying in for the full $1K. All the players, floor and dealers were super friendly though and the drink service was great (both Fiji water and mid-range liquors were available).

by Dynasty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59314706#post59314706)

A dealer told me the sportsbook tables will be added in the coming week.

Thanks.

Tom turned 90 today.

When I was at the Bellagio last Thursday, I saw a floorperson working with a new dealer on "Eurostyle" dealing. I walked past the table and asked the floor "Are you switching over?" The answer was "Maybe....maybe."

Interesting, It wouldn’t shock me if it was everywhere at some point (as well as greater restrictions on cell phone use/headphones at the table which I would welcome).

What is Eurostyle?

Sliding cards off top of the deck instead of pitching.

by Jeffage m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59394543#post59394543)

Sliding cards off top of the deck instead of pitching.

Like most blackjack dealers? Why would they be considering doing that? Seems like it would really slow things down, and it's very rare that cards are exposed on the deal.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59395146#post59395146)

Like most blackjack dealers? Why would they be considering doing that? Seems like it would really slow things down, and it's very rare that cards are exposed on the deal.

Here is a thread about it coming to Venetian soon and some videos of the method. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/108/l... (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/108/las-vegas-lifestyle/venetian-poker-room-going-euro-style-dealing-1863190/)

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59395146#post59395146)

by Jeffage m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59394543#post59394543)

Sliding cards off top of the deck instead of pitching.

Like most blackjack dealers Why would they be considering doing that Seems like it would really slow things down, and it's very rare that cards are exposed on the deal.

A dealer who is good at sliding is just as fast or faster than a dealer who is good at pitching. I've played several places overseas where all the dealers slide. It is the superior method.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59395146#post59395146)

Like most blackjack dealers? Why would they be considering doing that? Seems like it would really slow things down, and it's very rare that cards are exposed on the deal.

Prevents people from cheating with pinhole cameras, which has been a major issue across the country the last few years

by Greg (FossilMan) m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59395339#post59395339)

A dealer who is good at sliding is just as fast or faster than a dealer who is good at pitching. I've played several places overseas where all the dealers slide. It is the superior method.

Huh, then it must not be what I was picturing, which is how most dealers hand out the drawn cards in triple draw games.

presumably this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Kmg70wYaJF8 YouTube The Slide Method is Superior Way to Deal… Change My Mind. 👀🃏💨 (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Kmg70wYaJF8)

by dinesh m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59397843#post59397843)

presumably this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Kmg70wYaJF8 YouTube The Slide Method is Superior Way to Deal… Change My Mind. 👀🃏💨 (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Kmg70wYaJF8)

Good video. But it looks like it would be very easy to accidentally deal two cards to a player or four cards to slip off the top of the deck.