Macau

Does anyone know anything about poker in Macau? I heard that they have huge private games there (often in hotel rooms above the casino). Do they have poker rooms there? What are they like? Is Holdem the game of choice? BA

Anyone know if $25/50 runs at any of the rooms anymore? Much appreciated.

by bcmarshall m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58514205#post58514205)

Anyone know if $25/50 runs at any of the rooms anymore? Much appreciated.

Nope. 50/100 min MGM Macau had 25/50 before, but that was a few months ago. Mostly 50/100 there now.

Bugger. Makes it feel a bit pricey for the average Joe. Appreciate the info though. Any feeling for where the softer games are at that 50/100 limit?

If you see majority short stacks anywhere in Macau, those are the regs who play like ****. I hear they mostly go to MGM. I haven't been back since before the pandemic but I used to live there. The games will be soft but tight. You can still make OK $ playing those games as long as you don't get too aggressive when you don't have it.

i were to list the tightest 100 tables i ever played at, all 100 would be macau

by bcmarshall m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58516726#post58516726)

Bugger. Makes it feel a bit pricey for the average Joe. Appreciate the info though. Any feeling for where the softer games are at that 50/100 limit?

Always gonna be anywhere in Taipa, purely based on tourist attractions. Also would depend on how the room is being run. Haven't bothered to go Venetian in a 100 years though.

Cost is actually quite reasonable nowadays, especially if you are specifically dedicated to grinding. Food being free is super nice. Free Häagen-Dazs ice cream and all sorts of other desserts and drinks at the casino. Didn’t have these perks in the past. Parisian now having 26 tables is Poker Heaven. So many card rooms in Taipa, heard Wynn Palace will open as well. No better place than Macau imo. Only money I spend nowadays is accommodations and entertainment. Otherwise do not need to spend a dollar and you can survive for weeks in Macau.

26 tables? Needa go see for myself within this month, otherwise insanely hard to believe 😀

by Nordling89 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58555730#post58555730)

26 tables? Needa go see for myself within this month, otherwise insanely hard to believe 😀

Yes, this new room is beautiful but the location is crap. Tucked in the very deep corner next to the high limit Baccarat room. Hard for randoms to find the PokerRoom to play. Up to $350 dollars worth of food vouchers per pay. Depending on how many hours you play.

So how many of those tables are running for example on the weekend and what's the ratio in terms of stakes? Noone ever put a poker room in a great location apart from old 2010+ Venetian, which was purely a gold mine.

Well for the past two days there have been over 100 people on the list and 50/100 tables get broken and switched to 100/200.

if there're 100 people on the list, means around 5-6 tables of those 26 are open 😃 Which is the same story as usual. I got somewhat "horny" initially, based on your comment but back to impotency again 😃

by Nordling89 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58555775#post58555775)

if there're 100 people on the list, means around 5-6 tables of those 26 are open 😃 Which is the same story as usual. I got somewhat "horny" initially, based on your comment but back to impotency again 😃

5-6 open? I don’t understand. Anyways all tables have games going and full.

You knew exactly what I meant 😀 Never really understood your agenda though, "advertising" Macau on an English speaking poker forum where most people somewhat are adequate at the game or retired as pros for all to come as if you gonna crush each one of us at 600bbs/hour 😀

People have the right to post whatever they want... Fact is macau now has more tables than ever before due to recent increase in tables at parisian and mgm plus couple of other small rooms. But stakes are high, hardly any 50/100 during holidays. The free food for hours played is attracting the wrong crowd too. Recs don't care about that but online grinders from russia spain romania japan and so on have taken over the poker scene here. Especially since HKD is fixed to USD and their own currencies are weak af. So yes lots of new tables but mostly high stakes and 7-8 regs per table. Games were softer 12 months ago and infinitely softer back in 2019. Can't be more honest than that. Unless you have a large bankroll and can beat 100/200+ comfortably and withstand the swings, better go to US where games are way softer. The lack of low stakes is also deterring newcomers into the game in macau. Now n00bs gotta go thru a few buyins of 20-30k minimum just to play with 3 japanese 2 spanish and 2 russians at an unfriendly table where they can't even speak mandarin to anyone.. that's not fun.

I was told you can find the equivalent to NL 1k and NL 2.5k usd. Isn't that possible, and if it is, are them soft games? Was planning to go there for a few days but from what I'm reading in this thread it seems not worthy the trip.

NL 1k/2.5k that's online poker speech, if you mean 5/10, 10/20 or something (equivalent in HKD) yeah that's easily available and no, the games are *hit and the rake is brutal but I know peeps who are still making a living out of it, so what do I know... Here in HK I regularly get ads in my mailbox, mostly in Chinese, that go like, "how to beat the tough Macau games with advanced math and GTO" or something like that, haha. Some of it may be scam but at least some I know comes from peeps that I know are very good, so that's what you will be facing. Don't expect many players who are making basic mistakes...

last i ever saw of the real soft macau games were probably around 2011ish but the real heyday was the aughts

Well if games are running, it means they are beatable. The only question for westerners is are they different from games in eu or us, meaning do you see people puting 200bb's preflop with 67s, but that's just optimistic and looks like Macau is just the same as everywhere else. Games only run, when there is money to be made, you can see same thing online, u have no games running above 5knl, until a whale shows up, then u have 40+ reg on the waiting list to join the table in less then 1min. Well lets hope some big tournament series will come back to Macau, that would definitely improve the eco system at cash games. Any news on tournament scene?

Umm, no, there are absolutely games running that are unbeatable due to a combination of rake and lack of abysmal players and actually some of the Macau games were or are good candidates for that. But unbeatable games prolly exist in many places around the globe. But in live poker you have all kinds of phenomena, e.g. it's easily possible to just run good for many thousand hands and think you are much better than you are, or that the game is much better than it is. This has been shown by Monte-Carlo simulations long ago. Also, you always have peeps who just feel the need to gamble, most casino games are unbeatable and you still have peeps playing. That does not necessarily mean that they are bad players. Actually I had this exact conversation here in HK with several players. They understand the game well enough to suspect the games are unbeatable, but they are still going some weekends or whatever, cos gambol. Obv almost all of these, like myself also, have other sources of income. You have peeps who know basic strategy in BJ and know it is unbeatable without card counting and still playing in a setup where card counting is not possible. Ofc poker is more complex and the way the games are, there are probably peeps who are good enough to beat the games on every level. But prolly, there are way more players who might be good players, but just ran over EV a while/delusional. Like most peeps overestimate themselves in many areas they also overestimate themselves in their poker strength or beatability of the games. With the tourneys 100% agreed, would be great for the ecosystem, but you have the issue with the table limits, widely discussed here ITT. Tables are limited, that framework was just renewed not too long ago, and apparently the 1000th baccarat/BJ table makes more money than poker. And the Macau govt is not interested in more tables/casinos/gamble, actually the directives/orders from Beijing are to diversify the economy, which might or might not happen, but that's where they want to go anyway...

WPT is coming to Macau in June tho... https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/festiva... (https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/festival.php?a=r&n=54689)

by FWWM m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58562438#post58562438)

Umm, no, there are absolutely games running that are unbeatable due to a combination of rake and lack of abysmal players and actually some of the Macau games were or are good candidates for that. But unbeatable games prolly exist in many places around the globe. But in live poker you have all kinds of phenomena, e.g. it's easily possible to just run good for many thousand hands... See full post

Very solid answer. There will always be a steady supply of delusional people in the world for their own personal reasons. Some will be biased in overestimating their skill, some in other areas, for some it's just an experience trying to replicate Doyle Brunson and Amarillo Slim with their buddies. Tournaments indeed always made the games better temporarily, primarily at night when there's less competition for the table seats. But ultimately won't change anything as there're still 100 player waiting lists as the other person described. In terms of HK, most games are not unbeatable because of common factors that can affect the quality but purely because of RFID and rigging the deck, people been cheating that way for years. That's why every mediocre fish I knew that was losing in Macau, been starting their "own" games since 2012+. The competition for cheating got so intense that I've seen twice such games get raided by some hired gangs, and several stories of same things happening from people I know. During that period people who spent hours in Macau losing money, somehow magically started winning overnight. Even though the fields were on average more competent in some cases. Interesting news abt WPT, will have to play few events for sure.

Yep, to clarify I was talking with HK players about the Macau games. The HK underground games are a different beast and have other issues, absolutely. And yes, that WPT is very good news, I will probably play some too. The Wynn Palace is actually one of the places as described before that abandoned their already small poker room in favor of like the 995th-1000th baccarat table. I was talking to a former floor/supervisor of that game sometime after that, despite the said baccarat tables not exactly zooming with action every time I went past them, there was not really any interest in bringing poker back. The fact that they changed their mind on that is def something going in the right direction.

Not sure if I ever mentioned, but another thought on this topic just came up in my head. The extra part of the "equation" of how casino operators perceive poker is not purely related to table cap/profit per hour but also due to factors like these:

1. The non-Chinese operated properties still feel that they're operating on borrowed time, given their mistrust of Chinese business practices in general, hence the only investments that make clear cut sense on paper are in straight forward things like amenities, new land development etc. They could easily make larger poker rooms and sacrifice profits in short term to win in the long run by attracting a different type of customer. But it simple doesn't look good on financial reports and such decisions take a lot of willpower to make from upper management which are overpaid and virtually living a freeroll lifestyle until their jobs are secure. I remember having drinks with one of the Senior guys from Sands in Taipa, then they did coke with my housemate until 7am. Then he had to go for a business meeting at 10. That's just how "easy" these jobs are. And noone wants to be the scapegoat ultimately, potentially sacrificing the sweet spot for some poker crusade.
2. The Chinese owned properties purely have no understanding of how to approach poker unless it somehow benefits them directly like Starworld games in the past which were the initiative of a select group of their VIP players. Apart from that they understand that their clientele is different in general and simply don't have necessary expertise to run games efficiently. The reason when they're giving out comps and vouchers for spending time at the tables also seems obscure. If the poker room is somewhat known and the amount of tables is limited no amount of "effort" is required to keep them occupied unless they're 100/200+ who 90% of general population won't play regardless. If someone cared to analyze the profit/hour based on different stakes across every day of the week and the demand for such games a clear mathematical model can be developed that is both more efficient profit-wise and benefits the players directly. But so far is the same lazy approach to add poker just for the sake of it. Do hope something changes, but probably won't make much difference to me personally anymore, since I'm not even at 30% of ability of what it took to be properly profitable right now.

are there any sportsbooks in macau, don't recall ever seeing them before but then again i wasn't looking also, is it the same type of slots found in the USA or different brands for the asian market? those are two things i literally never ever looked at so am kind of curious about

by rickroll m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58563391#post58563391)

are there any sportsbooks in macau, don't recall ever seeing them before but then again i wasn't looking also, is it the same type of slots found in the USA or different brands for the asian market? those are two things i literally never ever looked at so am kind of curious about

Yea, they have a trashy alternative to HKJC called https://www.macau-slot.com/content/socce... (https://www.macau-slot.com/content/soccer/) and a separate one was used for betting horses but not sure if operating anymore. Most people just bet on HKJC regardless. In terms of slots, the selection is pretty boring from mainly Aristocrat or IGT Australia manufacturers. There're virtually no "complex" slots or video poker etc. Everything just straight to business. No huffing & puffing buffalos on a billion lines with tons of options for free games.

When someone who plays semi for fun on the weekends says the games are unbeatable, that might be the case for them, but for someone who studies and grinds the game religiously might not be the case. At least from my own experience, when you have a table full of guys in they'r late 20's and early 30's taking 15/30 seconds preflop to fold 72o from utg just to stay ''balanced'' with headphones/sunglasses, backpacks on they'r chairs, drinking water and eating salad that they prepared at home, those games don't last long, if possible people switch tables/move down stakes or call it a night immediately. Of course that doesn't kill the action over night, but if that's the case almost every night, eventually people would stop showing up, at least the very best one's, so the fact that there are many places with many tables open 24/7 means the games are beatable, but you have to be A+ player to beat them, like everywhere else when it comes to serious money. There are of course exceptions if rake is absurdly high like 10% uncapped, but as far as i know that's not the case.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58563718#post58563718)

when you have a table full of guys in they'r late 20's and early 30's taking 15/30 seconds preflop to fold 72o from utg just to stay ''balanced'' with headphones/sunglasses, backpacks on they'r chairs, drinking water and eating salad that they prepared at home

welcome to macau

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58563718#post58563718)

When someone who plays semi for fun on the weekends says the games are unbeatable, that might be the case for them, but for someone who studies and grinds the game religiously might not be the case. At least from my own experience, when you have a table full of guys in they'r late 20's and early 30's taking 15/30 seconds preflop to fold 72o from utg just to stay ''balanced'' wi... See full post

Drinking in the evening at work today so can spend some time to once again put it into perspective for people. All of us, you, me, Vanessa Selbst, Sam Trickett at a certain point in life either made money of poker or still play cause we think it's beatable. Live poker is by default a "situation" where such "events" can be more prone to error, based on skill and other factors. You can study and be as obnoxius as a ****ing a camel in the Arctic circle. Games being "beatable" per se doesn't not mean you're making more than a minimum wage working somewhere else, while simultaneously wasting time, other opportunities. You sit, don't do **** basically, apart from using your brain and your ego gets inflated when making a few rational decision that worked out fine. And I'm purely talking about a solo guy perspective and never been working as a part of the team. I've been doing this since I was 17, playing illegally in bars till I was 28 travelling to virtually every location that had decent poker, apart from Latin America. You can get a brain surgery to be replaced by a poker computer, it's not going to make a significant difference in terms of your winrate when the game is so to speak "solved". And the opportunities for people who don't have it "solved" to sit down and play with you are minimal. That's why I always suggested every "up n coming" SNG "wizard" or some imaginary new "cash game pro" to reconsider their life choices based on that we're living in 2024. Most of these people just typing random **** for attention, then when it comes to results they either write another imaginary **** that can be clearly read along the lines or disappear. An "A+" player is a very subjective term and everyone usually thinks that they're one. I've spent 12 years living this lifestyle, experienced being ****ed over by cheating, losing friendships through lending money, playing myself through different "eras" of poker development and if somehow someone's thinks they're "the ****" they won't be here on this forum talking about their dreams and aspirations. They would quietly keep being "the ****" and crushing wherever or just give up any notion of "grandeur" and purely share their experience once in a while for people to consider.

@Nordling89 If i offended you in any way i apologize, I posted my opinion, not claiming I know everything or that i can't be wrong. As far as trading poker skill and time for money it's relevant where you are located. For example in my case avr. income is around 1500 USD, so playing poker for a living makes sense. When i talk about A+ players i mean people who can beat 200zoom on pokerstars, which is considered to be one of the toughest games that runs consistently at the moment. Of course online u can play 1000hands per hour so even with small winrate you can grind out the variance, in live games u need big winrate otherwise you will be slave to variance for a very long time. As far as game being solved, people still punt, games got tougher thats natural but game is far from dead. Best players study GTO but only use it as a base line, when it comes to actual play they adjust to the game and exploit other players weaknesses. I read this thread while I drink my morning coffee, I value peoples input that they post here. Not here to fight with anyone.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58564918#post58564918)

@Nordling89 If i offended you in any way i apologize, I posted my opinion, not claiming I know everything or that i can't be wrong. As far as trading poker skill and time for money it's relevant where you are located. For example in my case avr. income is around 1500 USD, so playing poker for a living makes sense. When i talk about A+ players i mean people who can beat 200zoom ... See full post

No no no, there's no way I can be ever be offended in terms of my input. I'm a 35yo guy that gave up a significant portion of his life to build a family in this region. All the Macau **** just purely came as a collateral and me being excited about learning poker in the university days. All I ever want to "accomplish" with my posts is to try to give people who aspire to repeat the same lifestyle an in-depth detail of my own, mainly in terms of this region. I accomplished what I could and moved on. I have nothing to gain ever from what I message here, it's purely just a room for thought, based on a person's life who lived through it.

@Nordling89 Well like i said i really value your input, we might not agree on everything, however most of what you are saying i can either relate or agree. Era of easy money from poker is long gone, but imo its still a good way to make a decent living in most places. Maybe im optimistically foolish^^ However people shoudnt be scared of macau games, just because most people nowadays study solvers and use training programs dont mean all of them are good. Good example solver will tell you to bluff catch allin jam on the river X% of the time in certain spot, but in real life people almost never bluff in those spots. Solvers assume everyone plays perfect and give u counter strategy but in real life games no one plays perfect thats why if u dont understand why solver does what it does and u cant adjust on your own to the game you play, solvers are useless and even can harm your winrate. Most of the new generation follow solvers religiously and can't make any money because they lack experience while us oldschool players have more common sense, so dont be scared people of macau games even if the games look unbeatable thats probably not the case. Thats my input 😀

As far as I'm concerned, I already stated earlier, if you want to use it in a strict sense the games are not unbeatable. If you are enthusiastic about them by all means go and check them out yourself, like Nordling said we have all been there at some point. But there are reasons we have that stance that we have, it's not the same as in the US or even most of Europe, and some things that you say like table changes and stuff make it clear you've never been there and you don't yet fully understand the mechanics of these games and what you're up against. Myself also, I have other reasons to be here, if it was just for the games I would have left long ago. But yep, Nordling is abs right, I mean you need to weigh your options. Poker does not have a very unique skills set that is needed, if you are that A+ player that you describe, nowadays you have various options that make more money with less pain. Also you might wanna consider Macau is not a place that is cheap to stay, you have to take that into account also. But it will def be a valuable experience. Good night from beautiful HK.

Plenty of unbeatable games run everywhere live and online, for eg go look at 100-200plo online exactly how many players have moved up from grind profits alone through those stakes in the last 10 years.. The number is close to 0 because after rake the game is literally unbeatable. As for live it's not hard to calculate how many hands per hour * rake taken per hand * number of hours. Let's just say it's 25 hands per hour $300 hkd rake per pot(for 100/200 and above that would be higher) and 8 hours that comes to 60K rake collection. Now ask yourself during those 8 hours did any rec(s) show up and lose more than 60K. If not then that game is not really beatable unless there are regs in the game with massive leaks as in reg fish.

Kups vs VPS, Finland League over 2.5 FT @~2.0, forget about poker. Enjoy Friday night with degenerate inside betting tips 😀 Mandatory to listen to this meanwhile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBWhcPpd... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBWhcPpdomo)

@FWWM Fair points. Anyways, I was looking for a recent poker vlog in Macau, could not find anything. Everything (in english) was pre 2019. Does anyone know any vlogs from this year or 2023?

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58565149#post58565149)

@FWWM Fair points. Anyways, I was looking for a recent poker vlog in Macau, could not find anything. Everything (in english) was pre 2019. Does anyone know any vlogs from this year or 2023?

Only introverts can make a lil bit now 😀 they don't make vlogs 😀

by Nordling89 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58565132#post58565132)

Kups vs VPS, Finland League over 2.5 FT @~2.0, forget about poker. Enjoy Friday night with degenerate inside betting tips 😀 Mandatory to listen to this meanwhile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBWhcPpd... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBWhcPpdomo)

No need to thank a B-- player. I shouldn't be even doing this, but once in 14 years can give a free advice due to gin content in blood exceeds normal values...

Easy 1000hkd/hr even on lowest stakes. Nothing really changed in years. Don't listen to drunk losers, just play good exploitative poker.

Parisian is a very badly run room, same crew from venetian except now the room is hidden from main floor and doesn't get the fishes. Yet you'll get plenty of attitude from management and some dealers. The room traffic is dying by the day. Mgm has better staff but the casino also doesn't have whales and their rake same as venetian/parisian IMO isn't justified. WPT macau in June at wynn palace hopefully will make things a little better if cash games take off at that location..

by MuayThai m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58565962#post58565962)

Easy 1000hkd/hr even on lowest stakes. Nothing really changed in years. Don't listen to drunk losers, just play good exploitative poker.

Yea, absolutely. Considering your reputation for posting random contradictory nonsense of 18bb/hr pre-covid, then 7.5bb/hr but actually only started playing Holdem in 2022 but somehow got 5k hours in, as well as imaginary tales about hands/ruling and promoting some random ass coaching. You're right in terms on "nothing changed in years" only in terms of delusional ADHD dreamers appearing once in an a while to have a chance for communication and fake ego boosting through lackluster, obnoxious posts and then disappear to the real world to grind their 12hr night shifts once someone actually is desperate enough to hire them.

@Nordling89, The carrot poker school MuayThai is talking about is legit, but it exclusively focuses on online poker. I also reviewed some of his threads, it was a bit odd why live grinder in asia is curious about online cashgames, however his strategy related post indicates he is not a newb. When u said ''All of us, you, me, Vanessa Selbst, Sam Trickett at a certain point in life either made money of poker or still play cause we think it's beatable'' I think you have no idea how much meta game changed since the days Vanessa Selbst and Sam Trickett were top players. In 2014 i was crushing live and online, if i time traveled to present day, I would be a total fish, the only games I could beat now if i didnt improve, would be penny stakes online or 1/2 at my local casino on a friday night versus old guys who didnt improve theyr game in 15 years and who still think people who played on poker after dark, are still the best players at the moment. People who grinded 10-15y ago and stopped, are used to beat the game simply by playing better cards then theyr opponents, thats not the case now, at least when it comes to reasonable stakes. 10bb win rate that MuayThai mentioned seems right. Anything less then 5bb/100 you gonna have infinity variance in live poker, at 10bb/100 if u play 60 hours a week u might have shitty 2/3months were u break even, but nothing worse. And like i said in previous posts if games were that bad, that no one could beat them above 5bb/100 the very best players would leave, and this trend would go until games became better. And if they didnt get better they would eventually die, and since thats not the case means there is money to be made, its just a skill issue.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58567772#post58567772)

@Nordling89, The carrot poker school MuayThai is talking about is legit, but it exclusively focuses on online poker. I also reviewed some of his threads, it was a bit odd why live grinder in asia is curious about online cashgames, however his strategy related post indicates he is not a newb.When u said ''All of us, you, me, Vanessa Selbst, Sam Trickett at a certain point in lif... See full post

I wasn't saying any of coaching is not legit. Only pointing out logical flaws, due to his strange "aggressive" attitude. The people I quoted were purely for reference, examples can be made for every "era" and "meta". "Meta" by itself is a wrong term when applying to poker, since rules of the games don't change. Only approach through people copying other more successful/fluid players. FWWM summed up the situation quite precisely in terms of why games will run regardless of them being beatable and by how much. 5bb/hr sounds much more reasonable, can be even higher if playing as part of a team who have no moral values. I'm not even gonna talk again about "starting poker in 2022" and 5k hours anymore. Out of the recent posts first he just randomly asks "how to get reads" in a live game, then doesn't contribute to anything in discussion and offers any additional details. Secondly posting a very "strange" preflop situation which supposedly should happen in Macau, since he's so "knowledgeable" and then abandons the post. You trust this person's statements? 😀

Then he talks about being "balanced" in many ways, and then limps CO with KK... If this doesn't prove my point I guess we're just from different planets.

I didnt go into details, of course i take anyones statement with a grain of salt, like i said i found some of his threads odd but some of them seemed he knows at least something how things are. As far as poker strategy goes, game was almost static up to 2004 when the poker boom started, thats not the case, someone who was crushing online at 2020, would have difficult time now if they weren't constantly improving. Most value comes from small edge's, leaks that even winning players have, ect. no point to go into delays this thread is not for strategy. I dont post my opinion here to cheer myself or to educate people who are out of the game for a long time, i just dont like when people spread misinformation in public spaces. You successfully transitioned from poker and im glad for you, sensierly. But its not easy, and in my case not much of an option, of course i could find a traditional job, have bacherol degree in finance and economics, however idk how relevant it is since for the last 10y i exclusive lived of poker. Also you and FWWM had good points about living expenses/location in regard to regular job income, ect. All of that is relevant and a value your life advices, but when it comes to how good or bad the games are at the moment, im sorry you simply lack competence. I think this forum is the most popular place to look for information where and how the games run in Macau, thats why i dont want someone who is maybe in theyr early 20s trying to make it, read this thread and be mislead. Are the games tough? no doubt, wouldnt expect anything else considering the stakes, but to say that they are unbeatable it is just nonsense, especially from people who are out of the game for years.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58567815#post58567815)

I didnt go into details, of course i take anyones statement with a grain of salt, like i said i found some of his threads odd but some of them seemed he knows at least something how things are. As far as poker strategy goes, game was almost static up to 2004 when the poker boom started, thats not the case, someone who was crushing online at 2020, would have difficult time now i... See full post

No idea about state of poker in 2004, since I barely finished high-school. The biggest transition poker experienced in terms of strategy/approach to the game, at least in Asia came around 2015. After that you could feel a considerable influx of players, from online field who all had their flaws but eventually ironed them out in a year or so. Nobody ever said anything is unbeatable, I've played myself last year, beginning of this year and projecting my results over the span of a year for example, I estimated it's 0/-1bb hour proposition, not taking in account all the accommodation costs. That is considering I had almost zero time invested in poker strategy or playtime over the course of the past 5 years. The 20 year olds that are trying to "make it" will have to pave the road with their own mistakes. Other 20 year olds that are in the same "situation" aren't going to provide them with any knowledge whatsoever. Hence, the "benefit" of us "losers" is not to discourage someone to try and make the same mistakes we made at some point, but to try to save the few "weaker" ones from total failure and wasted years. As I've said multiple times already, if you're the new Fedor Holz you will spend exactly 0 minutes on this forum ever.

@Nordling89 I never claimed to be elite, im just a regular grinder, interested in the poker scene in asia. Also it's good opportunity for me to improve my english. And people did say games are unbeatable or almost unbeatable, I just wanted to clear things. I agree new players should pave theyr own path and learn from mistakes, but they shouldnt be discouraged or mislead, by people who are not pros anymore. I just remember myself, If someone explained things to me 10y ago that i know now, my path would have been way easier and way more successfull. I also feel some people took my post as a personal attack, if you stopped playing seriously years ago, and had no interest to pursue poker professionally no more, there is no shame to be a fish in a high stakes game. And yes 5/10 usd is considered to be high stakes, especially if its publicly available game, you gonna have top tier players in that game unless its in the middle of nowhere.

The issue with poker that you can call yourself "pro" within weeks. For people the definition of being "pro" is largely diluted by personal agenda. Some can be a "pro" just living the lifestyle of gambling, some knowing they're breakeven at best just playing hands, some by looking some learning material from dawn to dusk, some by scamming others, some by team-playing, etc. In the end every sane person wants to have certain return on their investment. I think we can all agree that pursuing poker in this era can be divided only in to two outcomes. Making small money "out of air" due to incompetent competition, being extremely superior to your competition by being a genius/lucky in high stakes live consistently. There's nothing else in between. In actual high stakes where the table consists of a mix of players with their own bankroll playing for themselves, I would not consider myself a fish by any means. And that's extremely objective as I always am. But we're mainly discussing day to day grind of 50/100, 100/200 stakes in Macau. For that I perfectly well accept that I'm not a winning player anymore. And the reasons for it aren't always directly related to skill, even though it makes up 40-50% of it.

It's the same story every single time. One talking about quitting a "billion $" job to play cash/tournaments, disappears. Another gambling, losing money, telling some fish hand histories, disappears. Other one almost pre-cumming on how he studies for SNG's with 75 thousand solvers and study programs, disappears. The bottom line is. When people deep inside know they're engaging into a bullshit endeavour and noone outside of their direct circle is supporting them, they will resort to seeking any "validation" they can get from people who ultimately don't give a ****. But it's still more comforting than getting nothing. Purely on a basis of common sense, it's much more beneficial to ascertain critical review of something than fake positive stories of people who either lie to themselves, are biased on different levels or is purely a plot of imagination of self-created persona. That applies to everything in life from fake Google reviews to people on Instagram pretending to be driving a new Rolls Royce everyday, while collecting food stamps.

by Nordling89 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58567837#post58567837)

The biggest transition poker experienced in terms of strategy/approach to the game, at least in Asia came around 2015. After that you could feel a considerable influx of players, from online field who all had their flaws but eventually ironed them out in a year or so.

100%, when i lookl back at Macau, 2013 was the last of the glory era and by 2016 I'd get seated at a 10 handed table and it'd literally be 8 other professionals from Europe trying to stack the guy from India

@Nordling89 I feel like im just answering your rants rather then having a productive discussion, however im doing nothing so i will entertain.

1. ''The issue with poker that you can call yourself "pro" within weeks.'' I'm shocked that i even need to explain to you what being a pro is, but since u dont know i will. A poker pro is someone who's main source of income is from playing poker, usually started from freerolls or penny stakes, moved slowly up stakes, built a bankroll and over long period of time proved to be profitable player. If someone is break even player variance will catch up to them very quickly online, in live poker it can take longer, but no more then a year/1.5y.
2. ''I think we can all agree that pursuing poker in this era can be divided only in to two outcomes. Making small money "out of air" due to incompetent competition, being extremely superior to your competition by being a genius/lucky in high stakes live consistently'' You have very narrow way of thinking about this. Lots of people from south america and eastern europe grind micro stakes online, for example $3/5/10 mtt's making $2/3 a game playing 1000 tourneys a month. Of course they are all weak regs playing abc tight poker, but they make 3/4x the avg. income of theyt respected countrys, while $3k usd a month might seems like a joke to you, but in theyr situation they are making good money. So when we talk about financial benefits it's not the same for everyone, and some people don't even do it for money, I know a guy from UK who quite his 50k/y office job, moved to vietnam, grinds nl5 (0,02/0,05) online, and lives of that, and probably is happier then any of us. However what u said about high stakes is true, edges are small, variance plays a big roll. From online most elite players make up to 250k/y if we talk consistently, anything over that will be due to variance, in EV around 250k is the ceiling for online. So you look from your own perspective, what is small money for you, for someone else is a fortune.
3. You talk a lot about cheating. When you say people team play in Macau games, what exactly do you mean? If you are talking about friends soft playing each other, then its nothing. I dont think i ever played in a live game where that wasnt the case, but its so insignificant and easy to spot, plus people that do that arent super good, that u lose more EV tipping dealers then to those guys.. You talked about rigged decks and marked cards, i dont think thats a problem in normal casinos, but if u choose to play underground well thats your problem. The only real cheating in regulated casino that i can think of is card sharing. That would be a serious issue if u had 3 people giving each other signal that they folded nuts or nut blockers to the player left in the hand, but the reason thats very unlikely or at least not common, these people need to be very good players to exploit this in the first place, secondly there are plenty of unregulated poker rooms online and apps where they can do this at the same stakes with 10 times the volume with zero impunity and anonymity. And if they tried it at super high stakes live, player pool is so small and players at nosebleeds are sharp, that those rats would be caught very fast.
4. ''In actual high stakes where the table consists of a mix of players with their own bankroll playing for themselves, I would not consider myself a fish by any means. And that's extremely objective as I always am. But we're mainly discussing day to day grind of 50/100, 100/200 stakes in Macau. For that I perfectly well accept that I'm not a winning player anymore. And the reasons for it aren't always directly related to skill, even though it makes up 40-50% of it.'' Actual high stakes? Are you talking about private games? Well sure if half of the table rich business men and rest are some semi pro types im sure anyone with a pulse can beat that game. When you say u did 0 studying in the last 5 years then claim that u are extremely objective of your ability as a player, I'm sorry i just cant take u seriously anymore, when it comes to poker.. And when u say the reason you are not winning is 60% because of cheated ect. thats like the classic fish excuse...

@Nordling89 About this last rant. Why do you think its wrong to look for like minded people in this forum? Name of the thread Macau, not I quite poker you should too. Sure I hoped someone would share theyr experiece how they are currently grinding, at the moment dealing with some personal things, some positive motivation would have been nice, but looks like people who actually do it dont waste theyr time here, so on that you were right. But at least i found out about the games. Tell me if you think its pointless and stupid why are you here? What do you get out of putting people down?

I don't think Nordling is putting anyone down. He is just stating the facts about poker in general. It's a very degenerate activity and it is very lifestyle oriented. It's even worse in Macau as an american or foreigner .There are too may obstacles in Macau and they include (not in any particular order) :

1. Table caps- which is why the games are always away from where the general public is
2. Visa upon arrival requirements : dependent on your country . Around 2015 things changed, you could live in zhuhai, cross the border to macau everyay and as long as you crossed back over before midnight into zhuhai, your via would reset ( again, country dependent as far as the amount of days )
3. It's reg infested, I used to play during the day about 11am, just holding a seat until about 7pm-ish waiting for a seat to open and for a fish to come in. ALL OF MACAU does this. we would sit there all day and barely **** with each other unless we had it, all waiting for a seat to open.
4. high cost of living- i used to rent 2 apartments, 1 in macau for about $350 USD and 1 in china for $200 , I would hold them at the same time so I could have 2 places to live and would rotate between them once my sessions were over. , prices are more like 8X that now- this wa sin 2010
5. When you hang around other degenerates that do degenerate activities, you truly do now know who you can trust. You also fall into stockholm syndrome where you want so desperately to believe that the life you are living is a noble and adventurous one, that you're special, that no one is like you and that they don't know what you're going through etc etc and the percentage of things that go bad- they will not happen to you, cuz you are the best player ever and you gonna sit down next to phil ivey one day and flop a straight flush on him when you call his 3 bet with 6 8 suited. theres more **** I can't think of, but we're all here to share. hope no one gets pissed at me

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58568523#post58568523)

@Nordling89 I feel like im just answering your rants rather then having a productive discussion, however im doing nothing so i will entertain.1) ''The issue with poker that you can call yourself "pro" within weeks.''I'm shocked that i even need to explain to you what being a pro is, but since u dont know i will. A poker pro is someone who's main source of income is from playing... See full post

Most of the things I've said, you misunderstood the meaning. Give me few hours, will reply in more detail. A bit busy at work. I value your point of view or anyone's for that matter who are willing to talk freely. But there're more similarities in our view than you initially thought.

As you may well have noticed, I've been on this forum 14 years with 321 posts to my name. With most of them being in this thread, covering all range of topics related to Macau. From "good" days to "bad" days and everything in between. Given the frequency of my posts I can hardly be classified as a person who “rants” about anything in general. I am still on this forum occasionally for the following reasons:

1. Poker has been a huge part of my life, that took up nearly a decade of my adult years. The moment I was legally allowed to go to a casino in New Zealand for example, I was there at 00.10am already. So, it has a great degree of nostalgic value for me in general. My view on it, in its current state, can be considered critical or pessimistic but it’s a view of the person who lived through it all and I know what I am talking about, especially in this specific location of the world. I’ve never commented on anything that I don’t have direct extensive experience in for a significant period of time to be entitled to my own opinion.
2. I somewhat still care about the state of poker, but purely based on Macau. Since it’s the only place I would still be willing to go play “recreationally”, considering I’ve been living in HK primarily for the past 14 years. And with family and all real-world commitments, I can’t be going to live in Manila for 6 months anymore, etc.
3. I feel that I can contribute positively by providing clear, objective, non-filtered, non-biased information to people who enquire about the state of poker in this region on multiple levels. From daily expenses to intricacies of the games. And even given that I only travel to play or relax once a month or two. Based on my experience, even just taking a few days to observe and play is enough to paint a clear picture of what has changed or not. It’s possible because you know which key areas to focus on when doing so. Now returning to your comments. Productive discussions are exactly the place where relative truth is “born” so to speak. I perfectly understand that people in different stages of their poker careers approach it differently due to various factors. I was also enthusiastic, excited and all the other adjectives when it brought me the lifestyle I had, few great friendships, opportunity to travel, financial freedom for not doing too much work technically, etc. As you get older, things appear more and more in perspective based on what your life journey was and acquiring additional skills and life experience. You can then proceed to “share” this point of view for various reasons be it personal benefit, ego boosting or just purely helping people when nothing you need to gain anymore. I hope we can agree that it’s much more valuable when someone honestly speaks to you about something that can be improved, rather than patting you on the head constantly and saying, “Good boy, you’re doing everything right”. So point by point now.
4. I am perfectly aware what being a pro means in terms of poker. You’ve missed the main point of what I was referring to in my statement. Being that there’re countless people online, talking about poker, that feel like they’re “pros” due to any “reason” imaginable they can come up with in their heads. Then based on that, they proceed to act like ones and brandish their “opinions” for all sorts of either biased or unqualified reasons to provide anything of substance. To me personally a definition of a pro is a person who treats the game with respect, has integrity and it’s either his main source of income or main source of occupation, given higher income from other investments.
5. You have a good point that based on geographic location there’s somewhat a grey zone (3rd point) that fits right in the middle of what I’ve described. But the point can be made first of all on the amount of effort they need to earn that type of money, which could be significantly higher than average monthly for their territory. The amount of time that they are giving up, relationships, health, normal careers, etc. I don’t think that making money that way ultimately leads to happiness on any level. Think of a situation like this. You’re living for example in Argentina, economy is ****ed, everything is ****ed. Average monthly salary is about 200$. Someone offers you a choice of making guaranteed 1,500$ every month for 12 hour work day, every single day of the month. Or instead of that you can make 400$, have a wife, kids, be healthy, but live somewhat “poor”. People will make this choice purely based on their current situation and their life experience. I mean there’s a ton to talk about regarding this, I really hope you understand my point. Otherwise just for this subject I can write at least a 5k word essay debating the philosophical aspect of it.
6. I don’t talk a lot about cheating, I mention it occasionally as it being in my life from a “victims” perspective. All my life I’ve never even soft played “friends” which sometimes led to their confusion in a few situations. Ultimately, they were either able to understand or not. Off the table they always knew what friendship really means to me though. The cheating scenarios that I’ve mentioned either happened in underground home games or private clubs in Philippines. In terms of Macau and casino settings in general, I’ve been multiple times approached by people to join in on the action to play as teams with signaling and “engineering” unique post flop situations. Hope you understand what it means. This point is not really relevant to what I’m trying to say so will just leave it here as is.
7. I’m talking about a mix of very good pros, mediocre pros and 2-3 recreational players with stakes equivalent to 50/100$+. And where everyone plays for themselves, with varied bankrolls. If you think that only purely studying 24/7 like a monk will give you an edge in such games, you can’t be more wrong. As I’ve said, skill level will constitute for 40-50% of your ability to be a winning player in such set ups. Other things will range from ability to gauge behavioral patterns, background considerations, knowledge of body language, interpreting table dynamics, noticing nuances in play based on each given day, bankroll status, depth of your experience/thinking, ability to process that information in a quick and efficient manner and a TON of other factors. If you only think that what constitutes win rate at higher stakes is just about at what frequency/ranges/stack depth etc. to 3bet profitably for each scenario, without taking into consideration the implications of it then you can’t be more wrong.
8. I don’t understand for the love of God when have I ever said that the reason I’m not “winning” is because of cheating. The reason I’m not winning is because I don’t care to win anymore. The reason I’m not winning is because I’m not PLAYING to begin with. And the final reason is because I chose to “win” at something else that brings me much more happiness and a balanced lifestyle at my age. And that, as again I reiterate comes down to regular mid stakes grind and not because I can’t get myself to a level where I can start winning again but purely because it firstly bores me, secondly, as we grow older there’re other things in life that become more important. I am never “ashamed” or whatever else to admit it. It should tell you something in terms of what kind of person I am. And just to finally sum it all up. I never, ever have a need to “bring anyone down” through what I say. It’s clear to notice that things I write neutrally are purely just an external opinion for additional room for thought to people. I very scarcely comment anything and only in times where I feel people might need another opinion since they’re so confused in themselves, and I can already project to where it’s heading, since I’ve seen hundreds of different cases and life stories, ranging from suicides over Baccarat losses to people losing their families over cocaine addictions from “easy money”. But, I’m still here for 14 years. As I’ve said, I respect you personally and respect your opinion. I never resort to calling people “drunk losers”, berating them in any way. But I don’t take any random **** either from people who are acting weirdly aggressive and whose “opinion” based on illogical, knowingly bullshit stories discrediting all the years of me contributing to this thread first handedly. If you clearly read and understand what I’ve written, you would realize that I understand everything you say and your logic perfectly well. Just as an added benefit to you, in terms of self-development, you should also be open-minded to my input. Then we all “win”.

@Nordling89 Thank you for the response. I'm only gonna touch a few points. I acknowledge that having a family and grinding full time has a lot of challenges, but lots of pro's have wifes/husbands and kids, its not a choice between poker or family. I know plenty of people who are married have kids and spend 9 month a year abroad working manual labor for 5x the money they would get in theyr home country. Stigma that exists in society around poker is the real issue. But nowadays if u want to make it in poker, all this degen stuff like doing drugs, punting money at pit games ect. is simply not possible, games are to tough, there is no easy money like 15y ago and people who do this stuff quickly go broke unless they change theyr life style. 10y i could wake up hungover fire 20 tables online and print money, nowadays i take 1 hour walk prepare myself for the session, try to live healthy, otherwise i have no change to make it. There are some unique cases where people live this party boy life style and still do good money consistently from poker, but the rest take it super seriously. About studying, like i said in previous posts u need to study and use it as a base line, and then adjust(exploit) depending who you are up against. When i say study i dont just mean gto, u can study population tendencies (harder to do in live poker due to lack of sufficient data), in what scenarios people over bluff/under bluff, fix your own leaks, ect. You can be the most savvy player ever but there is a ceiling to what games you can beat without doing any study. I feel like what ever i said in this forum i backed it up with sound arguments, i dont live in fairy tail world, i know the time and energy it takes to make it, and there are easier and better ways to achieve financial freedom then poker, but this is what i chose. Of course when i get older i want to feel some gratification from what i do, and poker being zero sum game doesnt help. But like i said this is who am, this is what i want, and nothing good in life is easy.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58569011#post58569011)

@Nordling89Thank you for the response. I'm only gonna touch a few points.I acknowledge that having a family and grinding full time has a lot of challenges, but lots of pro's have wifes/husbands and kids, its not a choice between poker or family. I know plenty of people who are married have kids and spend 9 month a year abroad working manual labor for 5x the money they would get... See full post

Yes absolutely, and I wish you the very best as well. Somewhere down the road though it's good to develop a back up plan for what you would like to do if something happens to poker. Either some financial crisis or the rake becomes so insane that not worthwhile playing for anyone professionally. Quoting a famous relevant movie. "Always leave yourself outs".

In 2024 any poker pro still strictly 100% depending on poker for income = life fish

by 1000lakes m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58570071#post58570071)

In 2024 any poker pro still strictly 100% depending on poker for income = life fish

In my early 20s I had this twisted world view if you are not rich or not doing something that can make you rich, then you are a loser or how u put it ''life fish''. Of course this arrogant mindset bite me in the ass, later in life. People who play poker purely for financial gains don't last long. Everyone who still successfully grind for a living, including me do it because they are passionite about the game, love to compete ect. It doesnt matter if u make videos on youtube, stream playing video games on twitch or play poker for a living, as long as u enjoy it, can support yourself and dont harm anyone in the process, you are not a loser or ''life fish''. And there are still plenty of soft low stakes games online and live, where anyone with a brain can make enough money to support themselves. I understand you are upset that you are no longer able to make good money from poker, but this is not the right place to post your salty opinion.

@Nordling89 Thanks man, likewise. I like the quote from Rounders, definitely applies to bankroll management, but as far as poker suddenly dying, very unlikely and here is why.

1. There were incidents when some poker room operators increased rake to unbeatable both live and online, and immediately poker community boycotted the games and operates were forced to go back to the rake % as before and in some cases even lowered the previous %. 90% of poker players play because they think they can beat the game or that it is possible to beat it, if operators got greedy and made games unbeatable they would kill the games, and new operator would enter and take the market.
2. Casinos have no incentive to get rid of pros since they start the games, boost tournament prize pools that attract people who wouldnt come otherwise.
3. There is endless recreational player pool in micro and low stakes, so unless you live in extremely high income country, you will have no problem to support yourself and you can always move. Given the current geopolitical situation there is high chance of nuclear apocalypse, then everyone getting extremely good at poker any time soon 😀

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58570664#post58570664)

In my early 20s I had this twisted world view if you are not rich or not doing something that can make you rich, then you are a loser or how u put it ''life fish''. Of course this arrogant mindset bite me in the ass, later in life. People who play poker purely for financial gains don't last long. Everyone who still successfully grind for a living, including me do it because the... See full post

lol you sure are one deluded and self-centered clown, making bunch of personal attacks just because a statement that wasn't even aimed at you hit a nerve. If you were smart at all you'd realize what I said was invaluable advice but your IQ is obviously not high enough for such realization. Btw you sound like a low stakes dude, some of us actually play or played high and have other sources of income. Not going to out myself though but thanks for your idiotic, unsolicited reply. Who's the one getting needlessly emotional and salty again? I wasn't even talking to you. If you really want to prove your poker worth I'd be quite happy to arrange for a HU match vs you online or live anytime. Not sure what stakes you can afford to play though, you sound kinda broke to me hahaha. Thanks for outing yourself as both a poker and life FISH! ROTFLMAO

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58570701#post58570701)

Given the current geopolitical situation there is high chance of nuclear apocalypse, then everyone getting extremely good at poker any time soon 😀

"High" chance of nuclear war destroying the entire planet? Hahaha please don't talk geopolitics again, you obviously have no clue.

Also a quick scan of posts reveal TomasPlay as recently as September last year was in this thread asking for advice on macau games, seemingly never having been at all. So how come a few months later you're in this thread arguing and throwing insults at macau players past and present with 10+ years of experience? Oh they can't beat the game anymore, they're salty, they're retired shouldn't speak, this and that. You're in this thread asking for advice and bite the hand that feeds you? I know 2+2 isn't a popular poker forum anymore and this thread is probably viewed by very few people, but in most other forums this type of behavior is a straight ban.

@1000lakes I meant to say higher not high ^^. Anyways keep your ''invaluable advice'' to yourself. No need to flood the forum with your manchild salty opinions, stick to the topic please. About hu match there is no upside for me, im not an expert in that format, and if you are actually good u will destroy me and if u are terrible u just wont show up.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58571227#post58571227)

@1000lakes I meant to say higher not high ^^. Anyways keep your ''invaluable advice'' to yourself. No need to flood the forum with your manchild salty opinions, stick to the topic please. About hu match there is no upside for me, im not an expert in that format, and if you are actually good u will destroy me and if u are terrible u just wont show up.

Look up the thread last 100 posts, I only made 1 or 2 posts giving current reports of macau poker rooms before your unsolicited attack, while you made countless long posts arguing with someone else. So who's the one flooding the thread with nonsense?

The misunderstanding i had with Nordling89, we cleared it out. I simply pointed out false thinking, for example I used to almost exclusively grind hu cashgames and sng's from like 2013 untill 2015 when they removed supernova from pokerstars, after that it made no sense to play it since a lot of my EV came from rake back, so i moved to mtt's and didnt look back. So if someone came to me today say hey you used to be good at hu can you coach me, i would say sorry because by todays standards im newb at hu, and would tell them to look for someone who is currently grinding it. I simply pointed out that if you are not currently grinding then you lack competence to objectively talk about current state of the games. You said i bite the hand that feeds, im not here begging for money or looking for someone to hold my hand. People share theyr opinions and experiences of theyr own free will, and if i think it is false or incorrect i will point it out.

Why argue over stuff? Just came back from work. Let me make peace for you guys instead. Hold on.

Unfortunately can only reply tmr. On an insane all-up bet in Norwegian league that wanna enjoy watching and still needa wake up early tmr, don't wanna write a half-assed post. p.s Please pray that Bodo/Tromso is over 3.5 goals. In this case I will win so much that I promised myself to quit smoking completely.

I just cum//////. Will reply tmr in terms of your guys "dispute" that should not really be the case. Then will take a long break from anything that can cause "stress" for at least few months.

Both of you have got a point, it's just the words that are being used to prove that point aren't either necessary or wrong because the point is not deep/objective enough. I agree that putting all eggs in one basket, especially with an intangible skill like poker is not the fool-proof solution in the long run for anybody. In the end we're not the providers of this type of "service" and if all somehow goes to **** due to circumstances outside of our control then what are we gonna be left with? Offer people in front of supermarket to play heads up for cucumbers or deliberately go to jail to "build a bankroll" there? Just like anything in life that can feel stable as a ****ing rock, things can change for a multitude of reasons that we're not aware of. Just look at Boeing issues for example and their stock values for the past several years. Who would've thought, right? But also as I believe I've mentioned, some people play not to become rich or move up in stakes every year. They can be comfortable with what they get. Ultimately there's no point to argue over anything. Everyone lives their life the way they see best. We share our opinions for different reasons, but what is definitely wrong in this situation is to try "project" ones opinion through mutual insults when every party can be wrong in one way or another regardless. What civilized people would do instead is when they feel an external opinion can be of benefit is to provide it. If it's rejected, then just move on. It's not like anyone will gain something out of fighting over one's "truth". Regardless how much you believe in what we're saying. And will be my last post for a while. Will focus on health, maintaining strong willpower to quit smoking and purely afk from any things apart from work and family. Wish you guys all the best.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58565149#post58565149)

@FWWM Fair points. Anyways, I was looking for a recent poker vlog in Macau, could not find anything. Everything (in english) was pre 2019. Does anyone know any vlogs from this year or 2023?

Check this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2T8rCG... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2T8rCGehk) (Channel name 撲克夫妻WiN Poker Couple) It's in Chinese but has English subtitles. I think he is Taiwanese, got plenty SE-Asia tournament videos too.

If anyone knows anywhere in Macau that runs 25/50 anymore either now or in the future please post where. Thank you.

by bcmarshall m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58577593#post58577593)

If anyone knows anywhere in Macau that runs 25/50 anymore either now or in the future please post where. Thank you.

If you are interested in micro live stakes I can recommend Cambodia thread

by MuayThai m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58577785#post58577785)

If you are interested in micro live stakes I can recommend Cambodia thread

Hi. Thanks for that. Unfortunately I can't go to Cambodia, I'm sure it would be fun though. I'm based in Macau for family reasons. I also don't consider 25/50 to be micro stakes if you can buy in for $20k HKD+.

Nordling are you a kiwi?

Hello, Does anyone know which is the best casino to play cash games? Also which recommendations would you give to someone that visits Macau for the first time(in terms of money exchange,hotels…😉? I will be in HK during summer and I would like to visit Macau to play some poker.

Venetian brother, Venetian

by MuayThai m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58581045#post58581045)

Venetian brother, Venetian

So i have been watching this guy on YT (name BluffaloSam), a week ago he released poker vlogs from Macau. He complained that Parisian had very bad games, high rake (5bb) players mostly tight fishes buyin short (50bbs) trying to double up and run, and game was super slow (20hands per hour). Then he tried Wynn and games were great, rake (3bb cap), players play deeper, looser and there are whales in the game. Also Wynn had 300/600/1200 public game running where half of the table were non pros. Can you explain why you recommend Venetian?

by bcmarshall m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58577851#post58577851)

Nordling are you a kiwi?

Citizen of the world. Originally Russian, left when I was 17, studied in New Zealand for 4 years. Lived and travelled for poker or business a while after that. But based in HK since 2010. NZ is a good country for someone with either zero ambitions or 50+ though.

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58584249#post58584249)

So i have been watching this guy on YT (name BluffaloSam), a week ago he released poker vlogs from Macau. He complained that Parisian had very bad games, high rake (5bb) players mostly tight fishes buyin short (50bbs) trying to double up and run, and game was super slow (20hands per hour). Then he tried Wynn and games were great, rake (3bb cap), players play deeper, looser and ... See full post

Can watch purely for "entertainment" value. Hand analysis, given live play is non-existent, like "brain explosions" and "mouse clicking" mode. Watched 3 videos, related to Macau, apart from showing hiking scenery, game decisions are extremely poor. No pro that is profitable is going to walk around all his vlogs, trying to remember random hands. It's either going to be live table action, pit, or hotel room. If you're profitable live, there're a lot of factors to describe on every street. He doesn't provide input on anything apart from cards and bet sizing. Will play WPT to catch up with a few old timers and see what's up regardless. Whoever wanna have a drink during that time, feel free to message me.

Can we get taxis from HK to Macau over the bridge? If not, how do people make the journey between like 1:30AM-5AM I was back in Hong Kong the other day but had things on every day during the day, and could’ve only done like an evening ferry to Macau, but had to be back in HK like 3-4AM each day. Ferry and helicopter didn’t seem to run between midnight and 6am so didn’t have any options 😔

HZM bus runs 24hrs

Buses run during that time with a certain interval. Haven't took a ferry in years since either driving on mixed plates or just taking a bus. Tuen Mun link is very solid now, so an hour between each bus for whatever ~60-80HKD is max, during that time is acceptable.

by Nordling89 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58584832#post58584832)

Will play WPT to catch up with a few old timers and see what's up regardless. Whoever wanna have a drink during that time, feel free to message me.

WPT Macau has been canceled, no reasons given.

Oh my... Thx very much for poasting dat anyway, I was very close to booking my non-refundable stay at the Sheraton Cotai in the last couple days, cos it was lil bit bit cheaper than the refundable one. Ah well, the world keeps on turning, I guess. If anyone thinks I'm gonna make it to Macau cos of the cash games, umm, no, no look at the fred...

by TomasPlay m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58584249#post58584249)

So i have been watching this guy on YT (name BluffaloSam), a week ago he released poker vlogs from Macau. He complained that Parisian had very bad games, high rake (5bb) players mostly tight fishes buyin short (50bbs) trying to double up and run, and game was super slow (20hands per hour). Then he tried Wynn and games were great, rake (3bb cap), players play deeper, looser and ... See full post

sounds like a sponsored post there's no chance of 300/600/1200 public games where half are not pros

Whats up with the bb/hour rates nowdays in Macau for 100/200 esp? What is great 4-5 nowdays?

ok here we go, a confirmed tournament at MGM Cotai poker room Sept. 3rd-15th with 4 main events. this is being run by MGM, no outside partners, and 4 major events (not including daily satellites). They were training new dealers when i was there in late June specifically to get ready for this tourney(with regs getting pissed off because they were dealing too slow, f*** that reg, YES it did seem like her first time at a live table after training, but come on dude...anyways). 4 major events: HK$5,000 (US$640) Mystery Bounty Event HK$6,800 (US$870) Golden Lion Bracelet Event HK$88,000 (US$11,265) High Roller HK$8,880 (US$1,136) MGMÂ’s Millionaire Maker Poker Tournament (main event, guaranteed $1M HKD 1st place prize) I called the poker room tonight to get more info...they said come in and scan the QR code (helpful ...right?). talking with one of the floor managers in June, there will be hotel deals as well. Seems they are going all-in and going relatively big with this tourney. Will be interesting to see the turnout, what mix of regs & newcomers...seeing as it's not published on any major poker news site and hard to get more info... http://www.asgam.com/index.php/2024/08/0... (http://www.asgam.com/index.php/2024/08/02/mgm-cotai-to-host-2024-mgm-poker-tournament-series-in-september/) (btw not a sponsored post at all lol, i am just excited to be able to go to a tourney because i live nearby, and this forum has been dead recently)

by macau696969 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58684103#post58684103)

ok here we go, a confirmed tournament at MGM Cotai poker room Sept. 3rd-15th with 4 main events. this is being run by MGM, no outside partners, and 4 major events (not including daily satellites). They were training new dealers when i was there in late June specifically to get ready for this tourney(with regs getting pissed off because they were dealing too slow, f*** that reg,... See full post

They're taking crazy rake on these events, hard to see why you aren't a sponsored poster when you don't mention that. For eg the main even $8800 is $7400+1480 I have never seen the main event of any series in the entire world that is 20% rake mgm room already has probably the tightest nits in macau, im not even sure that 20% tourney entry fee is beatable. They're also currently running a high hand promotion where best hand gives you a satellite seat, winner gets a main event seat. But that satty seat is raked and then main event seat 20% goes to rake again. So until you can mincash in the main you're just a rake slave for 2-3 full days for 0 reward... literally a scam. I think they only did all of this because macau has no tourney scene these days and they think cash regs won't understand. But if any US or even euro room did this they'd be outted as pure scammers.

by 1000lakes m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58688255#post58688255)

They're taking crazy rake on these events, hard to see why you aren't a sponsored poster when you don't mention that. For eg the main even $8800 is $7400+1480I have never seen the main event of any series in the entire world that is 20% rakemgm room already has probably the tightest nits in macau, im not even sure that 20% tourney entry fee is beatable. They're also currently r... See full post

Ok after finally getting more info from themÂ… totally agree with everything you said. I will not be going to this tourney, rather save my time in money for other events coming up in Vietnam or Taipei. I live close by in China which I why I was excited when I heard about it. But now IÂ’ve seen the detailed breakdowns of buyinÂ… and as you mention the rake. LetÂ’s also mention the weird structure. Main event day 1s, only 20 ppl each day make it to day 2Â… not a % like normal. Bounty tournament, 25ppl get paid no matter how many people enterÂ… maybe these limits are related to # of tables limits? I donÂ’t know, but I have to completely agree with you they probably are doing this for an easy rake and take advantage of the cash reg nits. Love your comment about the tightest nits. Shall we give a nit honorable mention to that older guy who wears countryside clothes who basically puts the mainland tourists all-in only when he has strong hands at the 50/100 games?

I’m also very curious how prepared the MGM floor/poker room managers are for a tournament and whether they are capable of making accurate, consistent decisions across the board (I.e. following TDA or whatever rules they may have in place)

Rake is insane but it’s A step in the right direction. Better than nothing going on at all. And if it is a success, other rooms will follow and when there’s competition, better for the customers and rake will probably lower. Major reason why WPT cancelled was because Macau do not allow third parties running the event, hence the casino itself has to do it. I like that MGM is at least trying, it seems that they put an effort into making their PokerRoom a success. Players get points as well which has never been the case for poker players. Games fairly tough though unfortunately. Everyone’s solid.

In the good ol' days acceptable rake was one of the main draws why you would go to Macau during tourneys, and it also provided weaker players to the back then already heavily raked cash games. I don't have time and will be away these dates anyway, but I would have probably skipped it regardless. With the player pool as it is, it might not even be beatable, but whatever I agree it's better than nada poker going on...

will be visiting Macau later this month, will only be there for one night arrive Sunday evening and fly out Monday evening .. not directly clear from scanning this thread, where can I play some recreational low limit poker , where can I expect some games ? what is the lowest limit , back when I first started going to Macau in 2009 it was 10/20 in the Grand Lisboa, I guess such low stakes no longer exist, and it now all is minimum 25/50 ? or does even that no longer exist thanks for any recommendations you can give

they ran 50/100 minimum everywhere , games is like gg-poker game , tightish with occasional whale coming in yet it seems problematic to try bluff ton / run over the table, they will throw 3bets and 4bets just wrong sizes but anyways need to play tighter than on typical low-stakes game which u can just run over . so if someone really wants to grind there at 50/100 i recommend bring like 200k hkd or find a way to access that amount bringing less and then hitting bad run running out of buy -ins and atm giving u like 3K HKD if ever totally sucks as environment its bit depressive and culture is rude to sum it up : if u r happy to play bit smaller game u will find 2/5 and even often 5/10 with lower rake in neigbouring countries , macau 50/100 hk seem like rake trap , step bigger game 100/200 with far lower rake might be excellent value but to be buying like 200bbs is like usd 5k u need to be kind of a high baller to do that so all in all i would consider macau probably good if ur well rolled

Not sure what the latest is but MGM Cotai reportedly had 25/50. Wynn and Venetian are 50/100+

False. There’s no 25/50

thanks for the info! guess no recreational live poker for me then 😀

Americano here: How can I get money in and out of Macau without bringing over 10K USD cash in? I need about 30k to play with there. Thanks!

Is there still 5 card and PLO running at Venetian? If so, what limits, how are the games?

Oh hell yeah is there 5card PLO in Macau now??? If so I’m gonna come visit ASAP

Hi all Quick request for an update on the best places to play / stay for 100/200HKD+ games in Macau for a player who likes a bit of action, not a waitlist of hours. Any help? I've not been back in about 10 years

by Ymmot m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59084112#post59084112)

Hi all Quick request for an update on the best places to play / stay for 100/200HKD+ games in Macau for a player who likes a bit of action, not a waitlist of hours. Any help? I've not been back in about 10 years

Venetian / Wynn

Hi Guys, if somebody is looking for a place for rent in Macau for short periods of time (no more than 40 days) let me know. im planning also to rent it out during February (Chinese new year). 2br 12 min walk to the Venetian.

Rake! Venetian is max 500?, Wynn 300?, MGM 500 on both casinos? Lisboa Palace?, Any other venues offering poker and their rake policy? Please help with updated Oct. 2025 rake levels.

Lisboa palace and MGM Macau dont have poker anymore. venetian and MGM 100-200 is 500 .wynn 50-100 is 300 . im nut sure about the 100-200 at the wynn but anyways it rarely runs . but honestly if you come to Macau to play the Rake should be your last concern...

by DorianGrey7653 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59128910#post59128910)

Hi Guys, if somebody is looking for a place for rent in Macau for short periods of time (no more than 40 days) let me know. im planning also to rent it out during February (Chinese new year). 2br 12 min walk to the Venetian.

I can't message you. Can you message me? I guess because you are new member. Anyway, I might be interested for February. I will be in Macau this week. Send me your telegram, wechat, or your fav app contact please.

by DorianGrey7653 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59128910#post59128910)

Hi Guys, if somebody is looking for a place for rent in Macau for short periods of time (no more than 40 days) let me know. im planning also to rent it out during February (Chinese new year). 2br 12 min walk to the Venetian.

I’m interested if it’s available. Does it have mold or smoke smell? I just arrived in Macau and it seems really hard to find somewhere live-avable for sub USD$100.

by Kripalu1 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59048955#post59048955)

Americano here: How can I get money in and out of Macau without bringing over 10K USD cash in? I need about 30k to play with there. Thanks!

Swapping crypto (USDT) for HKD cash would be the best way to go. Easy to find if you ask around in the poker room.

IÂ’ve been in Macau for a month now and IÂ’m completely shocked by the dealers. They cut the deck with 2 hands and they roll the deck. Some of them are literally holding the deck upside down. This is a serious game integrity issue. The stakes in Macau are really high and thereÂ’s absolutely no security. I really do not feel comfortable playing here.

which casinos?

by rickroll m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=59294472#post59294472)

which casinos?

Mostly at the Venetian. At MGM they use the European pitching (for all stakes) where they slide the cards instead of throwing them in the air. They have this plastic thingy that they put the deck in, so it’s virtually impossible for them to roll the deck. The deck stays face-down and level at all times. But you will still see the occasional double-handed cut (but much more rare than Venetian). For 200/400+ at The Venetian the dealers are also supposed to do the European pitch but they don’t have the plastic thingy. So after they’ve dealt the cards preflop, they still roll the deck.

Planning to come to Macau for some cash games and the MGM Championship end of October. Anyone has contacts for swapping crypto USDT/USDC to HKD in person or maybe some Telegram group? Please DM me.