2023-2024-2025-2026 NC/LC THREAD

once more do we meet in this place!

by AlanBostick m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58396750#post58396750)

This is why I was recommending Small Stakes Hold'em in the hand ranges thread.

The recommended pre-flop play around the blinds in that book is so awful that you would be punting an enormous amount of money if you followed it. The Stox book is much better simply because the blind play is much closer to reality. Pre-flop play around the blinds is a huge % of our winrate in LHE.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58391454#post58391454)

It looks like you ran around 14 BB/100 over 7kish hands. A variance calculator will tell you that you are a god. But in my experience, these sorts of things happen multiple times per career for everyone who plays over a million hands online... in both directions unfortunately. Live pros would kill themselves if they went on a 100k hand breakeven stretch. World class online play... See full post

No one is trying to say they are a world class online player lol. I’m not even saying this streak is a testament to my skill. Certainly the people I’m playing against are not even remotely as skilled as even the average online player. It’s just a live streak unlike any I’ve personally ever heard of. Regardless, variance is insane. This may be a bad way to look at this, but if I win 69% of my 20/40 sessions at this location, the chances of me even winning b2b sessions are roughly 47.6% (all other things presumed relatively equal). The chances I win five sessions in a row are 15.6%. I ended up winning 33 in a row.

I personally think that’s unfathomable in a live LHE cash game. You can belittle it if you want, but I’m going to continue to think it’s absurd.

I was not trying to belittle it. I was just trying to discourage you and everyone else from doing something silly with your money based on freakish variance in either direction. I have seen countless pros go on a crazy heater and move up in stakes while spending enormous amounts of money on various luxuries on the side. A few months later, they're selling their new car and taking ubers to and from the casino. Bad times.

Oh, I’ve been doing this way too long to think I suddenly figured something out. I’ve actually played zero hours above 20/40 since that streak started. Ironically, I’m the closest I’ve ever been to switching careers. Poker has awarded me amazing freedom but it’s gotten me absolutely nowhere financially and I’ve lost any passion I ever had for the game.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58399341#post58399341)

I was not trying to belittle it. I was just trying to discourage you and everyone else from doing something silly with your money based on freakish variance in either direction. I have seen countless pros go on a crazy heater and move up in stakes while spending enormous amounts of money on various luxuries on the side. A few months later, they're selling their new car and taki... See full post

Thanks I was thinking of trying my luck at LA/Bay good thing you makes me come to my sense

Its just a cool crazy random streak for sure. That said I feel strongly if someone is winning 69% of their live sessions in LHE they are doing something suboptimal in terms of win structuring. Had a discussion awhile back with a good friend and we both think the "goal" should be to win around 50% of live sessions, any more than that and you are probably win locking and/or not maximizing the good days. Any less and it might be hard to win overall. One of the very best skills a live pro can develop is to take a 10-30 bet loss and not be perturbed in any way and sleep like a baby. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone losing 20 bets, game gets worse, and they try to get even and turn it into a 50 bet loss.

I should have noted this in my last post but that 69% is bloated: -it’s my current win percentage. I didn’t filter to the date before it started. -I did filter out sessions of five hours or less because they are anomalies and I usually play 8+ hours a day. -I only have 143 20/40 sessions at this location lifetime. It didn’t become my regular casino until 2023 so my sample size is still kind of small. My win % before the streak started, all session lengths included, was 58%.

I def don’t win protect. I stick to a schedule. Sometimes I’ll play an extra hour or two if the game is really good (whether I’m winning or losing). One thing I have always been really good (or bad?) at is leaving when I’m getting killed and can’t recover mentally.

Yeah was more speaking generally, your stats just provided an example

I get horrible insomnia after a big winning session... just too much of that competitive/degen gambling rush to sleep properly. When I lose big on the other hand, I sleep really well because I feel slightly depressed and don't really want to think about poker. I am the exact same way with tournament chess... insomnia when I win, sleep like a baby when I lose lol.

by DonJuan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58399467#post58399467)

Thanks I was thinking of trying my luck at LA/Bay good thing you makes me come to my sense

You're a strong player, but I'm not sure that you have what it takes to make it in the LA games.

by DeathDonkey m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58399697#post58399697)

I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone losing 20 bets, game gets worse, and they try to get even and turn it into a 50 bet loss.

Can’t even imagine losing my cool after being down 20 bets lol. For the longest time, my pain threshold routinely kicked in around -50 bets in a losing session and I thought it was weak on my part that I had trouble pushing past that (at least at 20/40+ - not so much at lower stakes). I set an all time loss record in 2016 and didn’t pass that number for almost six years, even though I was playing bigger stakes. I’ve passed that previous record seven more times in the last 21 months. Growth, I guess.

Losing 100 BBs live is about the point where I start to feel shell-shocked and wonder if I am just getting wrecked somehow... time to go home.

Stupid hand from HP 15/30: Elderly LAG opens in early middle position and a loose passive guy calls next in. Folded to me OTB and I 3bet KQo. BB calls, LAG calls, loose passive guy calls. Flop 775r. Checked to me, I bet, BB folds, LAG calls, loose passive guy calls. Turn J putting up a FD. Checked to me, I bet, LAG XR, loose passive guy folds, I call. River 2h. LAG bets I call. Spoiler Show

LAG has K4o

That is a truly bizarro world play... floating air 3way to check-raise air 3way on the turn. To me, the interesting thing about this hand is the concept of hard exploits vs. soft exploits. This is the hardest of hard exploits. When he sees this, he's going to remember it for a long time. Is he really so bonkers that he will just do the same thing again tomorrow? But if your read was strong enough, I guess we just have to call down. Still a metagame ruiner though.

by DeathDonkey m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58399697#post58399697)

Its just a cool crazy random streak for sure. That said I feel strongly if someone is winning 69% of their live sessions in LHE they are doing something suboptimal in terms of win structuring. Had a discussion awhile back with a good friend and we both think the "goal" should be to win around 50% of live sessions, any more than that and you are probably win locking and/or not m... See full post

I was going to say something like this regarding a 33 session win streak. Quitting decisions are obviously being made to help that continue.

Every session of the streak

I didn’t know this was even happening until the four straight +2k sessions in late April. That first session immediately after looks sus but I didn’t get in the game til 7:17 PM and I usually leave around midnight unless the game is off the charts. Not sure about that 7/18 4.5 hour +71. I started at 5 PM and left at 9:30 on a Tuesday when my gf was in NYC. I don’t have anything on my calendar for that date. There were a couple times when the game broke early on a weekday night and I was wondering if that was going to be how the streak ended. This was prob one of those times. The only other sub-5.5 hour session I played I won 4.5 racks and left at 1:13 AM. I may have left a very good game at 1 AM for win #33 to keep the streak alive knowing I was only going to play an hour longer max. I dunno. I didn’t think I was making quitting decisions based on something that doesn’t ultimately matter and I think these logs are evidence of that. I was kind of wanting it to be over tbh. I was posting updates on my social media and players and dealers started talking to me about it at the table and I didn’t like that at all. Like, I’ve always enjoyed sharing my poker journey via social media or my blog but I’ve also always loathed talking about it while I’m actually playing - unless it’s about me sucking. I don’t need to be having a conversation about how I’ve been crushing everyone I’m currently sitting at the table with.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58397032#post58397032)

The recommended pre-flop play around the blinds in that book is so awful that you would be punting an enormous amount of money if you followed it. The Stox book is much better simply because the blind play is much closer to reality. Pre-flop play around the blinds is a huge % of our winrate in LHE.

I'm not sure what you mean by "around the blinds". What did you think was bad about the pre-flop suggestions from SSLE? I read the Stox book not long after it came out but I don't remember how it differed in pre-flop recommendations.

It’s been a while since I’ve revisited SSLHE but I’m pretty sure the recommendations are way too tight (not prob fine for new players).

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58419899#post58419899)

I'm not sure what you mean by "around the blinds". What did you think was bad about the pre-flop suggestions from SSLE? I read the Stox book not long after it came out but I don't remember how it differed in pre-flop recommendations.

By around the blinds, I mean around the blinds. What do I think is bad about the pre-flop suggestions? That they absolutely suck and are 20 years outdated. The Stox book introduced revolutionary concepts such as blind stealing and blind defense.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58419997#post58419997)

By around the blinds, I mean around the blinds. What do I think is bad about the pre-flop suggestions? That they absolutely suck and are 20 years outdated. The Stox book introduced revolutionary concepts such as blind stealing and blind defense.

If you don't want to answer something you could say so, or just ignore the question. No need to waste your time giving flippant answers clearly meant to insult others. Although it does seem like the only reason you post here is to make you feel good about how much better you are than anyone else. Silly me for thinking you might have had any other reason for your post.

In his defense, around the blinds seems pretty self explanatory. Defending blinds and stealing blinds from late position

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58420442#post58420442)

If you don't want to answer something you could say so, or just ignore the question. No need to waste your time giving flippant answers clearly meant to insult others. Although it does seem like the only reason you post here is to make you feel good about how much better you are than anyone else. Silly me for thinking you might have had any other reason for your post.

My ratio of helpful posts to douchebag posts absolutely dwarfs yours. You have directed rude posts at me in the past, and you just dropped 2 more. In fact, I don't ever remember having a pleasant interaction with you. Your first post was condescending and snarky. If you don't know what "around the blinds" means, you need to take that **** to the beginner forums. Like ninefingershuffle said, it is quite self-explanatory. It is common lingo that has been around forever. I thoroughly answered your questions while intentionally matching your tone from your first post.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58420730#post58420730)

My ratio of helpful posts to douchebag posts absolutely dwarfs yours. You have directed rude posts at me in the past, and you just dropped 2 more. In fact, I don't ever remember having a pleasant interaction with you.Your first post was condescending and snarky. If you don't know what "around the blinds" means, you need to take that **** to the beginner forums. Like ninefingers... See full post

I honestly have no idea what you think could have been snarky about asking what the difference was in blind play between the two books. I own both, but they've both been in storage across the country from me for a long time. Also, you were definitely condescending towards two other posters I like just in the last two pages here. I suppose I could have guessed what you meant by "around the blinds", but I wasn't sure. I have been a LHE pro for many years, read the strategy forums here for longer, and still do. But I have never heard the phrase "around the blinds" before. You didn't answer that question, nor my other question. Saying something "sucks" and is "20 years outdated" doesn't explain anything, and I'm pretty sure you knew that. I still have no idea if you think the SSHE suggestions were too tight, too loose, or anything else.

by ninefingershuffle m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58420540#post58420540)

In his defense, around the blinds seems pretty self explanatory. Defending blinds and stealing blinds from late position

Yes, that is what I thought the most likely meaning was, but I wanted to be sure. I certainly didn't ask in any kind of snarky way, and he claims he thoroughly answered it by saying "By around the blinds, I mean around the blinds." 🙄 In the games addressed by the SSHE book, stealing blinds would absolutely never come into play, so of course it didn't address that, nor defending against a likely steal raise.

Someone just joined mongidig on my troll list.

popcorn emoji

I couldn't take it so I pulled SSHE off a shelf, it really doesn't say anything about blind steal / defense whatsoever. It just says "Don't play A9o or worse" (presumably, from anywhere). A quick glance through the preflop section is quite wild, really shows how knowledge has advanced in our little game. I would only recommend that book to someone who had never played poker at all and wanted to learn some basics.

by DeathDonkey m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58421681#post58421681)

I couldn't take it so I pulled SSHE off a shelf, it really doesn't say anything about blind steal / defense whatsoever. It just says "Don't play A9o or worse" (presumably, from anywhere). A quick glance through the preflop section is quite wild, really shows how knowledge has advanced in our little game. I would only recommend that book to someone who had never played poker at ... See full post

Well couldn’t we say that book was made to beat very bad players being typical very loose and passive . I figue if a very loose and passive player do end up raising pf , A8o and below should actually be in really bad shape . Obv it’s an introductory book limiting situations when big mistake post flop is far more costly then pf mistakes .

Sure, it just shows how quickly things change in the poker world I would say. Or maybe how out of touch I am with a very small stakes LHE game lol

I’m sick. One of my favorite things to do is torture 4/8 players while I’m waiting for a seat in what I actually want to play.

That book was meant for circus 9-10 handed small stakes games where every flop is 5-6 handed. So blind defense wasn't very important. But as an online player, the book really hindered my development since 6-max was where the money was. You obviously need to play well around the blinds to succeed at 6-max. The Stox book went a long way towards fixing my play around the blinds. And then Deathdonkey and Oink's videos got me playing a very modern 6-max pre-flop style. Excellent pre-flop play around the blinds is crucial.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58421946#post58421946)

I’m sick. One of my favorite things to do is torture 4/8 players while I’m waiting for a seat in what I actually want to play.... See full post

35 standard deviation ? Isn’t that incredibly high or maybe I confuse it with another stats ?

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58421946#post58421946)

I’m sick. One of my favorite things to do is torture 4/8 players while I’m waiting for a seat in what I actually want to play.... See full post

This is great to do if you can a) take it seriously b) adjust your game properly (higher rake or even just a rake period if 20/40 is time game) which is appears you are So many pros will just sit on their phones and wait or chat with others for hour+ waiting for a seat. If you can sit and earn a bit in 4/8 or 8/16 while waiting for your main game, that will hurt your butt in seat hourly, but improve your body in casino hourly.

I will play 8/16 while I am waiting for a bigger game, but I'm not convinced that anything lower than that is beatable for an amount that is worth the mental energy from playing and the emotional energy of sitting with those players.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58422031#post58422031)

That book was meant for circus 9-10 handed small stakes games where every flop is 5-6 handed. So blind defense wasn't very important.But as an online player, the book really hindered my development since 6-max was where the money was. You obviously need to play well around the blinds to succeed at 6-max.The Stox book went a long way towards fixing my play around the blinds. And... See full post

Can you please clarify what you mean by "around the blinds?"

by that_pope m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58422070#post58422070)

This is great to do if you can a) take it seriouslyb) adjust your game properly (higher rake or even just a rake period if 20/40 is time game)which is appears you areSo many pros will just sit on their phones and wait or chat with others for hour+ waiting for a seat. If you can sit and earn a bit in 4/8 or 8/16 while waiting for your main game, that will hurt your butt in seat... See full post

I play looser and more aggro than usual preflop for the lolz but I def still play to win. I’m not trying to give those people my money. A lot of people at the 4/8 level play with so much emotion and I love getting them riled up. [emoji2371]

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58422077#post58422077)

Can you please clarify what you mean by "around the blinds?"

♥ "Around the blinds" means cold 4-betting your UTG straddle.

Who is responsible for brainwashing limit holdem players at every limit I’ve ever played into thinking that they always have to check to the last preflop raiser? God bless that beautiful soul.

Funny, it's such a prolific piece of poker wisdom that I couldn't tell you where I first learned it. I would assume it is mentioned in some of the classic books (HPFAP or SSHE maybe?) It's not a terrible rule of thumb, even in terms of modern poker theory. The last preflop raiser generally will have the strongest range. Obviously having leads is important, especially multiway, but as far as old school heuristics go, I don't think this one gets people into all that much trouble, especially given that the alternative for many players is a super transparent and imbalanced leading range.

I've seen plenty of donks donk bet the flop. I've also seen good players do it in spots where they expect me to have a check-back range, although such opponents have been much less common in my experience which has primarily been low-mid stakes.

I think it’s god awful advice - as a general rule - especially for loose mid-stakes games. Maybe not at higher stakes where pots are usually heads up but when you’re constantly going multi-way to the flop, the PFR should be checking the flop A LOT. And if the PFR actually does check a good amount of the time then they need to be countered by donking into them. Same goes for LP steals vs the blinds. I just think it’s hilarious that I can raise pre and check back flop for the 30th time in a session and almost no one adjusts their strategy.

In heads up pots it’s not terrible as a general rule except around the blinds where a late position raiser can check back low flops. Multi-way especially 4 plus is a different story. That said, there are players in my pool who are habitual donkers and it lol since I know their exact hands and can fold hands I would have bet

by ninefingershuffle m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58423257#post58423257)

In heads up pots it’s not terrible as a general rule except around the blinds where a late position raiser can check back low flops. Multi-way especially 4 plus is a different story. That said, there are players in my pool who are habitual donkers and it lol since I know their exact hands and can fold hands I would have bet

What precisely do you mean by "around the blinds"? Please elaborate in a 5 paragraph essay with a strong thesis stating your 3 major points, 3 paragraphs supporting these 3 major points, and a conclusion where you restate your thesis.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58423196#post58423196)

Maybe not at higher stakes where pots are usually heads up but when you’re constantly going multi-way to the flop, the PFR should be checking the flop A LOT. And if the PFR actually does check a good amount of the time then they need to be countered by donking into them.

In your experience, does the player pool check the flop a lot when checked to as the preflop raiser? That is certainly not my experience. Even at, say, 20/40, I think most players c-bet too much, both heads up and multiway. And that makes reflexively checking to the last preflop raiser a lot less bad, or sometimes even good, especially as compared to however the player in question might deploy a leading strategy. That takes me to your point about how you check back 30 times and they still keep checking to you. Yeah, that means their strategy is not ideal. But how much EV are they losing from that strategy compared to whatever ridiculous and imbalance leading strategy they might try to deploy instead? They might be, intentionally or not, choosing the lesser of two bad strategies. Here's a thought experiment: if you took someone who never played poker before and they could either play only AA or they could play a totally GTO preflop range, what's going to be less -EV for them? I think its fairly obvious they're better off playing only AA because they're going to butcher all the other hands so badly that they're better off (from an immediate EV standpoint, not a long-term learning standpoint) choosing a worse preflop strategy. Same thing goes here, with less hyperbole. "Bad" players are sometimes better off following suboptimal heuristics. Maybe it's because you're on that sick heater you posted about, and I don't mean to use this term in a way that is an attack on you, but your posts sound really judgmental. I think I really improved a lot as a poker player when I stopped labeling players or plays as "bad" and instead tried to focus on figuring out the reasoning behind the play and figuring out how my opponents thought about the game. Hell, a lot of what would have once been thought of as "god awful advice" on this forum has been vindicated by solvers, etc. And yeah, I know that the difference between "bad" and "suboptimal" or the like is mostly semantic, but, at least for me, that internal narrative/characterization really matters.

I think that TheDarkKnight should be locked in a steel cage with DonJuan and 3 regs from butfukistan until he starts acting more humble.

Ugh. Poker has humbled me plenty. I’m pretty much at my bottom as a pro. 2023 was my worst year ever. I’m basically living a miserable existence. That being said, I think if you always check to someone that has a large check back range, you are not playing all that great. You can balance your donking range by betting your best hands, your best draws, and your top pairs.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58423385#post58423385)

In your experience, does the player pool check the flop a lot when checked to as the preflop raiser? That is certainly not my experience. Even at, say, 20/40, I think most players c-bet too much, both heads up and multiway. And that makes reflexively checking to the last preflop raiser a lot less bad, or sometimes even good, especially as compared to however the player in quest... See full post

I think most players cbet the flop far too often but there are some sharper players out there that check back at a chunky frequency and if you check to them 100% of the time you are making a mistake imo. I’m fine with it. I don’t want them to start betting into me. I don’t want them to start playing better. I didn’t post that on here wondering how we can get them to play better. I was just making an amusing anecdote and maybe if someone here never donks as a rule they could think about why doing starting to do so actually makes a lot of sense. (Sorry didn’t read the AA hypothetical - my girl is annoyed that I’m on my phone).

The challenge arises not just from balancing your donking range but from balancing your checking range. Will you still have check raises and check calls? Or will you allow the preflop aggressor to bet without the threat of a check-raise? Trifurcating a range creates challenges and the narrower the ranges, the greater the challenge.

DK - I think we're kind of talking past one another. I don't disagree with you that people should c-bet less and, assuming they are checking back appropriately, we need to lead more. I'm commenting more on pool tendencies and whether, in practice, players who check to the raiser too much are making that big of a mistake. I know you were just trying to relay an anecdote and make a joke. I was responding more to your follow-up post about it being "god awful" advice and trying to provide some genuinely helpful commentary on what I read into your post. Not trying to be adversarial at all. Sorry if it comes off that way. Edit: I'm also really sad to hear you're living a miserable existence. Hang in there, buddy.

by CrazyLond m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58423499#post58423499)

The challenge arises not just from balancing your donking range but from balancing your checking range. Will you still have check raises and check calls? Or will you allow the preflop aggressor to bet without the threat of a check-raise? Trifurcating a range creates challenges and the narrower the ranges, the greater the challenge.

Well you still have to balance your check/calling range against your check/raising range. And this is already in a node when you are making a deviation by not having any leads, where the pfr gets to exploit you if they want to and all you get in return is perceived simplicity. I think it was stox who observed that if a player bets 100%, then we should check 100% in order to exploit their imbalance. However if they start checking appropriately then we are incentivized to develop a leading range. Well what if they start checking far too much? Then we would be crazy to keep following the mantra of “always check to the pfr” just to simplify the game tree

I'm not saying never donk in any situation, I'm saying doing so creates challenges beyond having a balanced donking range. Although in some spots, I would agree with never donk and cbet 100 percent range.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58423506#post58423506)

DK - I think we're kind of talking past one another. I don't disagree with you that people should c-bet less and, assuming they are checking back appropriately, we need to lead more. I'm commenting more on pool tendencies and whether, in practice, players who check to the raiser too much are making that big of a mistake. I know you were just trying to relay an anecdote and make... See full post

God awful might have been extreme. I used to do it all the time myself until someone started donking into me on a regular basis. At first I thought it was bad for him to do it but then I realized how much it annoyed me and have since incorporated it into my own game. I mostly just think it’s a very underused weapon in the games i frequent. My existence isn’t that bad lol. But I’ve reached a point where I really struggle to find the motivation to play the hours I need to play to make the money I need to make. I got divorced last year and it absolutely cratered me financially. I should probably explore other options but I have no idea what I could tolerate and make good money. I don’t want to get back into the business side of poker. Winning a bracelet would help lol.

I certainly don't think you should concentrate on winning bracelet. Didn't you say you lost a ton at the WSOP and had a huge winning streak at LHE cash games? It's likely not just the way your luck ran, those two things take far different skill sets, and it's pretty obvious which one you have. I don't know why you would ever play a tournament unless it's super fun for you and you have money to burn (neither of which seem to be true).

Not focused on it lol. Just saying it would help. Last year was a disaster and I put more of myself at risk than I should have. I can sell huge pieces of myself if I want to for the whole series. I’ve done well in tournaments for my career considering the level of volume I’ve put in - and yes, I’m aware I’ve run well above expectation. But yes, my focus is on playing cash for now. I don’t plan to stay for the whole wsop again this year but I certainly won’t be skipping it entirely.

TDK - I am posting this publicly to maybe help others, not to be a jerk - I think you are very stuck in that allure of poker that causes many many people to be stuck being a small stakes pro. You feel you are just one good run away from living a very fun life with plenty of money and freedom, but it is quite hard to get out of the small / mid stakes these days as a pro. You have to make a lot at the tables just to pay life expenses and break even, rake isn't getting lower, games aren't getting softer, and if you do manage to go on a good run and move up, you are going to find tougher opposition too. I see a lot of guys in that situation at my home casino, some of them seem happy doing it, most of them seem pretty miserable and play 60 hours a week and drink a lot. Going out and doing some non poker job seems scary and awful, but the people I know that go that route by and large seem to feel pretty good when they start seeing some steady income roll in and get away from the poker dream / mirage. Poker is a great side hustle, its not a great job. ps: if you want to play mix games, you need to surround yourself with some better players to learn from. Almost every pacific NW mix game player is really technically bad and I think its cuz they just all see how each other play and think that's "standard"

I agree with DD on this. It's easy to think poker is an easier lifestyle than a corporate job when you clear a big bet an hour at 20/40 or 40/80 but it seems to me like playing as a pro is a brutal proposition unless you can crush 75/150+ and are comfortably bankrolled for the limit. If you have a daytime job that covers your bills, you can still play weekends and evenings which are much better times to play than weekday daytime games that tend to be littered with pros and wealthy retirees who are still grizzled poker veterans and can still be reasonably tough to deal with. And the stress is much reduced because you don't have to keep winning to survive. You don't have to take money out every month to cover your bills and expenses and if you're talented, you should be able to move up in limits much faster by re-investing 100 percent of your winnings into your bankroll. Assuming, of course, you can avoid bad habits like drugs, sports betting and expensive women that have been known to derail some of us. And, if you run bad or are just generally burned out from playing, you can take a break whenever and come back when your passion for the game returns. Not only will playing be more enjoyable than when you have to play, but you'll probably play better when you're not stressed about keeping up with your bills. People talk about the freedom of setting your own hours but big deal if you still have to grind 50+ hours per week to survive. I will grant that in the current economic climate, it is unlikely you will immediately find a 9-5 to cover any kind of comfy lifestyle if you've gambled for a living for the past decade, but it is possible to live for quite cheap by making sacrifices like taking on roommates, taking public transportation instead of driving, etc. And, while entry level jobs don't pay much, there is a huge dearth of competent people in just about every industry. If you are sharp enough to win at poker and show yourself to be reliable and competent, it shouldn't be long before you can demand more money. Good employees are tough to come by.

by DeathDonkey m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424186#post58424186)

TDK - I am posting this publicly to maybe help others, not to be a jerk - I think you are very stuck in that allure of poker that causes many many people to be stuck being a small stakes pro. You feel you are just one good run away from living a very fun life with plenty of money and freedom, but it is quite hard to get out of the small / mid stakes these days as a pro. You hav... See full post

No offense taken. Just truth. My biggest problem has always been I don’t play enough. Since my first full year as a pro in 2017 I’ve only topped 160 hours in a month 11 times. Meanwhile, I’ve come in under 120 hours in a month 24 times (2020 excluded) and under 100 11 of those times. When I’m doing really well I get lazy and complacent and take extra time off. When I’m doing really poorly I struggle to find the motivation to play. When I was married, having that extra stable income and premium health insurance made a huge difference. Post-divorce not only did I have to hand over half my bankroll, but my monthly expenses have somehow gone up and it’s caught up to me. Then I followed all that up with my worst year as a pro. I never really toyed with the idea of getting a job until last year. I’m open to it. But it’s hard to imagine finding something that pays as well as poker. Post-pandemic, my hourly in my three main games is just under $60. My hourly in 20/40 is $93. My hourly in 20/40 at Fortune is even higher. Yes, I know those last two numbers are absolutely bloated by run good but I’ve always been around a 1.5 BB/hr player in LHE so I think $60 is a good baseline. I just don’t know what I could do that pays like that. I’m not quite desperate enough to go searching for something, but I’m open to the idea of a career switch for sure.

I mean that is reasonable and I can see you've thought about this. I guess what I would say is that is a little bit the trap I am talking about. It is unlikely there is a job that you would enjoy doing that will pay more than $60 an hour right away but there are many many jobs that might start at $25 an hour, and when you show you are talented it goes up very quickly. There is almost no chance your hourly rate at LHE is going to increase in the next few years, and there's a good chance that it could go down for many different reasons. Anyway, we've met a couple times, you seem nice, you could do a lot of things, though laziness and complacency will be a problem in any industry. I'll hop off the soap box 😀

Find a new wife that open to your situation probably a lot more +ev than anything you will do atm beside crushing lhe at a high level. the chance of you finding a job that satisfying compare to what you think you make at poker is going to be tough unless you get complete beat down for a long time and complete broke. otherwise you always going to be itching to play poker.

by DeathDonkey m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424380#post58424380)

Anyway, we've met a couple times, you seem nice, you could do a lot of things, though laziness and complacency will be a problem in any industry. I'll hop off the soap box 😀

Thanks DD. You’ve always been critical but fair with me. I probably value your input more than anyone in poker and root for you heavily. DonJuan, I got myself a 25yo stunner instead. She has five jobs now (all extremely part time) and none of them have benefits. I also don’t have a fair financial balance with her yet - I probably pay for 65-75% of our expenses and we live together. I also heavily funded her 3+ month trip to NYC last year and she’s barely begun to pay me back. I’m very attracted to her and really enjoy spending time with her so it’s also easy for me to skip out on playing if she wants to me to stay home when she’s off. This probably sounded like a thinly veiled brag but in truth I would certainly be in a better spot financially if I had just stayed single after getting divorced.

Before the recent burst of inflation, I always said that you need to make $100/hour to really be happy as a pro. Post-inflation, I would say more like $150/hour. That is why I am busting my ass trying to get good at NLHE... much higher ceiling. It's possible to make $150/hour playing LHE, but you need to be a Bonition endboss like DonJuan or be one of the best players in LA or some such. "Grinders" are usually miserable in my experience. Trying to live in LA while making $60/hour at Commerce 40/80 is suicide-inducing. And one more point... I really don't think it is possible to efficiently and happily grind 40+ hour weeks. Your level of play is going to decline. You're going to grind non-premium hours. You're not going to be putting in the 15-20 hours of study that you need. You need to be fresh, relaxed, and happy when you play. Anything less is horribly inefficient imo. So let's suppose you play 30 hours/week for 45 weeks of the year at $150/hour... that's just over 200k/year which used to be a lot of money, but isn't anymore. I argue that the vast majority of regs who aren't hitting those types of numbers or efficiently moving in the right direction are probably miserable. I'm not talking about young kids fresh out of college (who btw don't play LHE anyway). I'm talking about 10+ year veterans like most us posting in this forum.

I told myself don't go into the LC/NC thread because it's depressing. I figured I would see what everyone is talking about these days. Now I'm depressed.

In other words rec players like me stay winning in life even though crushers are winning in the game

by checkraisdraw m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424704#post58424704)

In other words rec players like me stay winning in life even though crushers are winning in the game

Life isn't about keeping score, it's about making the most of each moment.

Life is about living selflessly and putting others first. Every time I impart my timeless wisdom unto this thread, I march one step closer to the kingdom of heaven.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424719#post58424719)

Life is about living selflessly and putting others first. Every time I impart my timeless wisdom unto this thread, I march one step closer to the kingdom of heaven.

That sounds more like self abandonment. Both one's own desires and the desires of others should be considered when decision making and win-win solutions should be sought.

by CrazyLond m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424714#post58424714)

Life isn't about keeping score, it's about making the most of each moment.

I was just trying to bring some levity to the thread :( carry on with doomposting. at the end of the day I love poker pros and think they are awesome for the most part. the people at the table that piss me off the most are almost never the pro players.

by CrazyLond m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424739#post58424739)

That sounds more like self abandonment. Both one's own desires and the desires of others should be considered when decision making and win-win solutions should be sought.

Is this from the Amarillo Slim book?

by mongidig m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424942#post58424942)

Is this from the Amarillo Slim book?

It was from a personal moment of clarity I had in 2017. I realised it was important to listen to people to gain an understanding of their perspective, especially people with different conclusions to me. Until that point, I had entered many conversations with the intent of proving my previously held supposition to be true but from that point forward, I entered conversations with the intent of understanding the perspective of the other. Doing so is not only compassionate towards that other but beneficial to myself. Poker and life are games of incomplete information and the more relevant information one can gain, the better positioned one is for success. Early on, people were disclosing much relevant information although they have since become significantly more guarded.

by checkraisdraw m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58424747#post58424747)

I was just trying to bring some levity to the thread :( carry on with doomposting. at the end of the day I love poker pros and think they are awesome for the most part. the people at the table that piss me off the most are almost never the pro players.

It won't add levity to tell a bunch of poker pros that you as an amateur are winning the game of life versus them. There are benefits to other professions, as have been discussed in this thread, but that doesn't mean a poker pro is incapable of fulfillment. In poker, the sky is the limit as far as stakes, so while many grinders may live unfulfilling lives glued to the table, upper tier talent such as death donkey, unguarded, and others who monitor this thread have no real cap on their lifetime earning potential. If the right fish or group of fish appear and are willing to play big enough, they could become some of the wealthiest people in the world. In fact, in a futuristic novel I am authoring, a poker pro does become the wealthiest person in New York and New York becomes the wealthiest city in the world, following a significant collapse in the near future.

Alright big man appreciate your perspective. Let me know when the wish fulfillment fantasy er I mean book comes out. I’m sure it will be a best seller.

New York already is the wealthiest city in the world 👀

by JohnnyHumongous m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58426516#post58426516)

New York already is the wealthiest city in the world 👀

Ok

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Been a long time since I posted poker content on Twitter. Shocked at the response that got. Maybe you’re responsible lol. I’ve been getting comments telling me to keep my big chips visible all day. [emoji23][emoji23]

How did you not bust the table?

by that_pope m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58427422#post58427422)

At least this thread has life again!Let's keep it going.... See full post

That’s epic af

Why are there different color blue chips?

by ninefingershuffle m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58429165#post58429165)

Why are there different color blue chips?

In this photo, there are two blue $1 chips, and above them is one aqua(?) colored $2 chip. They drop $2 chips in the rake box and sometimes players get them back as change in a pot from a $5 that was broken to drop the rake.

They have blue $1, green $2, red $5 and watermelon $25. They have 8/16 and play with the $2 chips. They prob used to use them for rake but now they use a $5 and brown $3 (never in play). Some dealers take two red chips out and toss in two blue ($8 drop now) and some take two red out and toss in one green. I think you’re a better dealer if you put two blue back in the pot and I think you’re fishing for better tips if you put a green chip in the pot.

i quit being a pro 10 years ago when online started to die off. live poker for me was always for "fun". The reason being is live poker is hard to accumulate a solid sample. its just too slow. the variance is disgusting and now i just play small online again for fun. I have a job that pays excellent with above average benefits. the only thing i miss about being a poker pro is having full control over my time.

Lhe Std quite low. It correlated w variance. I would view the first 1.5/BB per 100 hands edge comes from standard gto solver work. The variance from this might be the most swingy. The next 1.5BB and beyond are quite stable but it require constant adaption to pop tendency and making a lot of exploitative adjustment. Beyond that mental game probably bring it to another .5-1/BB edge. In total i think it possible to do 4/BB 100 per online and 2/BB per hour live.

Of course standard deviation is correlated with variance. (standard deviation) = sqrt(variance) by definition.

I've been playing poker much less since 2020 as well - some combination of the 15-30 game at my local casino dying off and just getting busier at work. But I do miss it. Borgata stopped giving out rooms, Vegas comps are **** and costs are super high, it's all mostly kept me away from the tables. Looking forward to 2024 though. Already have my annual trip to AZ planned after a couple years off, and pope says that the new room should be launched before then. Going to Vegas for march madness. My football team plays in LA next year as well, so I'll maybe make a triumphant return to Commerce. Everything's coming up Millhouse.

by dinesh m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58430359#post58430359)

and pope says that the new room should be launched before then.

Details on the new poker room?

This is from their marketing: by that_pope m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58428838#post58428838)

Picture of new room. Saw a dealer say it will be open on February 8th, just a few days before Super Bowl. Might as well post more of their propaganda: ... See full post

by AlanBostick m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58430343#post58430343)

Of course standard deviation is correlated with variance. (standard deviation) = sqrt(variance) by definition.

yes I was trying to not be loud about the fact that high variance isn't why the game suck for him.

by DonJuan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58429988#post58429988)

In total i think it possible to do 2/BB per hour live.

Funny. I feel like people on this site have been telling me this is impossible to do since I first started posting here. They used to tell me 1 BB/hr at 8/16 was impossible lol.

DonJuan is a world class talent with 20k+ hours experience playing against killers and probably 15k+ hours of solver work and other hard study that only a few players in the world are even capable of understanding. To put things in perspective, DonJuan is a significant part of why I am moving to NL. I will just never be able to catch up to him. I will never be able to hold the Bonition lobby. I will always have him at my table sucking significant EV from me. DonJuan possibly being able to sustain those numbers is pretty meaningless... non-zero chance he is the best in the world (non-cheaters of course) by a decent margin. And tbh, I don't think he can sustain those numbers 5-6 handed online or playing long hours in the LA games. He would probably need significant time beating people down HUHU.

by tw2238 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58429855#post58429855)

i quit being a pro 10 years ago when online started to die off. live poker for me was always for "fun". The reason being is live poker is hard to accumulate a solid sample. its just too slow. the variance is disgusting and now i just play small online again for fun. I have a job that pays excellent with above average benefits. the only thing i miss about being a poker pro is ha... See full post

nice post sir

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58430678#post58430678)

DonJuan is a world class talent with 20k+ hours experience playing against killers and probably 15k+ hours of solver work and other hard study that only a few players in the world are even capable of understanding.To put things in perspective, DonJuan is a significant part of why I am moving to NL. I will just never be able to catch up to him. I will never be able to hold the B... See full post

nice post sir

Yeah the sample size is just so tiny live. I’m running at 2 bb/hr over 600 hours over last 2.5 or so years but that’s nothing and it’s the same player pool that really helps

I havent play live close to 2 years. I was never able to adapt mentally like others regs and probably was slight loser in it. With saying that still think it 2/Bb per hour isnt impossible. There so much exploitation you can do with live read. Big blind can probably be close to 0 in win rate and Small bind slight +ev depending on btn and co open.

2 BB/hr might be sustainable in pools that don't have pros traveling regularly and/or moving there to join them. The Blackhawk games in Colorado used to be like this, but word got around and some pros were like "You mean I don't have to live in LA and be verbally abused at the tables every day?" If someone is beating the Commerce games for 2 BB/hr over a few years of full-time play, they are likely god-tier at spotting tells and just generally paying super close attention. But the vast majority of pros get stoned and space out, play with their phones, or talk to their friends most of the session.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58430678#post58430678)

DonJuan is a world class talent with 20k+ hours experience playing against killers and probably 15k+ hours of solver work and other hard study that only a few players in the world are even capable of understanding.To put things in perspective, DonJuan is a significant part of why I am moving to NL. I will just never be able to catch up to him. I will never be able to hold the B... See full post

I didn’t get the impression that he was suggesting only someone of his ability could reach those numbers. I took it as he thought it possible for mere mortals as well.

by DonJuan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58430796#post58430796)

I havent play live close to 2 years. I was never able to adapt mentally like others regs and probably was slight loser in it. With saying that still think it 2/Bb per hour isnt impossible. There so much exploitation you can do with live read. Big blind can probably be close to 0 in win rate and Small bind slight +ev depending on btn and co open.

Can you explain more about what you mean by adapting mentally?

by DonJuan m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58429988#post58429988)

Lhe Std quite low. It correlated w variance. I would view the first 1.5/BB per 100 hands edge comes from standard gto solver work. The variance from this might be the most swingy. The next 1.5BB and beyond are quite stable but it require constant adaption to pop tendency and making a lot of exploitative adjustment. Beyond that mental game probably bring it to another .5-1/BB ed... See full post

4bb online is great but depends on what your paying in rake . i wanna say your speaking for 10/20+ crowd online. at the micros im paying 5bb/100 and still winning a nice clip. god bless if your taking 4bb/100.

definitely no where near what is possible but this is my last year. Do I look like I am lying?

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Do we think there is any merit to being a “never chop” player in a 20/40 game with an auto-$8 drop?

8 drop!? Auto? Da ****

Yeah, $5 rake $3 PSJ at $40 pot I think so any flop in 20/40 is max drop.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58435666#post58435666)

Do we think there is any merit to being a “never chop” player in a 20/40 game with an auto-$8 drop?

Unlikely, unless you enjoy pissing people off. What I like to do is sit to the left of someone who doesn't chop. You can likely overcome the rake in position.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58435666#post58435666)

Do we think there is any merit to being a “never chop” player in a 20/40 game with an auto-$8 drop?

NO. You are on quite the heater to even consider this. I think there is some merit to chop even in a time game. Keeps the game friendly and keeps people from thinking you are cutthroat. But obviously that is player dependent and if I am in a non home casino I don't chop just so I don't have to worry about being angled.

I’ve been considering it since 2016 when I first started playing 20/40 in Washington. I had played all my volume at Palace and Fortune had just opened and I was planning to be a non-chopper in the 20/40 game and the first time I sat down there were multiple Palace regs in the game so I decided to still chop and have done so ever since. I’ve always wished that never happened, especially since none of them play there anymore. However, the real breaking point for me happened last month. I walked in to see a 4-handed game and made it clear that I’m playing all hands 6-handed. This is standard for me. I find it hard to stomach playing in a 6-handed game where people want to chop. It gets weird when there are seven stacks and one player is walking and the game is temporarily 6-handed. I don’t care too much about playing or not playing when someone is temporarily gone. On the other hand, there are 7-handed games where someone always seems to be walking and the game is basically always 6-handed. I think it gets murky in spots like this and not everyone views the situation the same way I do. Anyways, that 5-handed game eventually fills up and many hours later I’m having one of my all-time worst sessions (not completely irrelevant imo). We are 8-handed and I’m in the small blind, but two players are walking. I must admit I’m kind of reeling in this moment so I’m not alert and when it folds to me, I just snap muck my hand without looking and take back my blind and the player in the big blind sits there with his cards and says, “you said you play 6-handed” and made me give him the $10. Well, I certainly didn’t have an argument for that, so I gave it to him. It’s probably also worth noting that me and this dude hate each other. I don’t think any other player would do this to me. He’s a convicted sex trafficker on top of being an absolute prick and everyone else mostly treats him like he’s just another one of the guys. I’ve never pretended to like him and I don’t act like I think he’s good people. I’m not aggressive about my distaste but I don’t give him a pass like everyone else seems to. One might say this problem could be solved because it’s only one person and I can just avoid him, but he’s one of the biggest regulars in the game and I purposefully sit on his right as frequently as I can because a) he’s a nit, b) he’s predictable, and c) he constantly telegraphs his preflop decisions or folds out of turn out of disrespect towards me and no one ever checks him on it. Also, there are times (though infrequent) when the games get extra tight and there seem to be 3-4 chops an orbit. I hate chopping in games like that. And mostly, I just like playing. I don’t care about the friendly or cutthroat side of things. I’ve always been cutthroat. That doesn’t mean I can’t be friendly and well liked. The only question I care about is, “is it possible to be profitable in BvB spots with an $8 drop, or is it clearly unprofitable?” Does anyone have a definitive answer to THAT question?

You should try to get a rake reduction if you are constantly playing 4 handed games, or better yet, convince them to go to time.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58439863#post58439863)

The only question I care about is, “is it possible to be profitable in BvB spots with an $8 drop, or is it clearly unprofitable?” Does anyone have a definitive answer to THAT question?

No, nobody has a definitive answer to that question because it depends on the quality of your games.

by that_pope m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58440005#post58440005)

You should try to get a rake reduction if you are constantly playing 4 handed games, or better yet, convince them to go to time.

Rake is auto-reduced. Can’t imagine they would ever go time game. The games are not often super short. There is almost always one full, steady game during the hours I typically play. And usually once the game gets open seats a certain crowd of players will just quit and try and break the game.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58440044#post58440044)

No, nobody has a definitive answer to that question because it depends on the quality of your games.

The games are very good. I think most of the top regs are not very strong. I guess a better question would be, “how hard would it be to show a profit in BvB situations with an $8 drop?” assuming the player pool is pretty weak overall and you should be one of the better players and play exploitively.

I play in the same game. As I said, I think it would make sense to play in position when you already have a BB invested, but not OOP from the small blind. So I would recommend you do what I do, be willing to chop but try to sit to the left of a non-chopper and definitely not to the right of one. Personality I have always chopped 6 or more and played 5 or less, in time or raked games. That rule seems the most common and I've never taken much flak about it.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58440044#post58440044)

No, nobody has a definitive answer to that question because it depends on the quality of your games.

If this is true, that means you think it is possible to profit in this dynamic. Otherwise the definitive answer would be no, correct?

I did some rough pen and paper estimates over 10 years ago and concluded that it was possible to beat the rake against bad regs BvB at Commerce 40/80, but not at 20/40. I'm not doing the math again though because I don't play either game, I don't care, and I don't want to deal with the borderline trolls who are here to nitpick and criticize rather than contribute.

I think it’s possible but probably shows like a few dollars profit for a situation that shouldn’t be coming up that much anyway if you’re game selecting. Maybe if you’re a pro it’s worth it but not for me.

When I last considered playing bvb in live raked 20/40, it wasn't clear that $4 max from a $240 pot was beatable in a soft pool. I chopped for a while, played for a lot longer, and went back to chopping as the pool shrunk and got relatively tougher. I don't remember a difference in results, just that I guessed the rake must be getting tougher to beat. There wasn't a consistent choice across the players I considered good. I always played 5 or less because rake was automatically halved at that point. Ldo, my sample sizes are too small and there's probably more value to be had playing bvb in the solver era. $8 regardless of pot size seems like a problem if you're going to average as many hands OOP as IP.

After the incident I described above, I decided to be a non-chopper starting January 1st. I really don’t know if it’s a financially sound decision. I might be underestimating the rake. I started tracking BvB results two sessions ago and going forward I’m gong to track BB and SB separately. TBD.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443233#post58443233)

After the incident I described above, I decided to be a non-chopper starting January 1st. I really don’t know if it’s a financially sound decision. I might be underestimating the rake. I started tracking BvB results two sessions ago and going forward I’m gong to track BB and SB separately. TBD.

I don't understand why you would stop chopping based on the incident mentioned, if you mean the one where you missed that it was 6 handed and mucked without looking at your hand. Seems like a fluke and a mistake you're not likely to make often. Tracking results for a single position is going to take a lot more concentration than noticing that it's shorthanded, and would take several years to be statistically significant.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443333#post58443333)

I don't understand why you would stop chopping based on the incident mentioned

a) because I would rather play than chop. Playing is more fun than not playing. b) because it gets tiresome explaining that I play six-handed, but I’ll chop when it’s temporarily 6-handed in a full game, etc. c) my gut tells me that I will profit in BvB situations in these games, even with the cost of playing being $8 per hand. I could certainly be wrong. I’m okay finding out the hard way. d) the incident was just a springboard / last straw for pushing me to pull the trigger on something I’ve been itching to do for 7+ years now. It is not hard to track results from the blinds in BvB hands. It takes like 5 seconds after a hand to put a result in my notes. I’m not tracking every hand from these positions - just the BvB ones, and only those that i previously would have chopped (so none when only six seats are filled).

Not sure if I get this right because I’m not a live player but . To win 10$ from the SB , u are ready to risk your 20$BB plus 8$ ? Is there rake on top of that ?

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you are the small blind, you are risking $30 to win $30 if you raise preflop. If you don’t consider the small blind as belonging to the current pot because you normally chop then I guess you could see it as risking $40 to win $20. When they defend and we cbet we are risking $20 to win $72 ($8 comes out of the pot when dealer brings a flop).

Ok but u can be in the BB spot too ? Are u suggesting you are not chopping in SB but u would in BB ?

No I’m playing from BB obv. If SB folds you just win the $10. I guess I just didn’t understand your hand example. If SB limps and we raise, we are risking $20 to win $40. If they call and check flop and we bet, we are risking $20 to win $72. $8 only comes out of the pot if there is a flop.

Ok i thought chopping was like decided before u saw your hand ? So u can chopped or not depending what hand u have . I thought u were asking as a general strategy to always chopping or not .

I think MC is asking an important question, if not quite directly worded. DK is the rake in your 20/40 all taken on the flop, no money dropped for winning the blinds preflop?

I’ve answered that question multiple times lol. Rake is only taken if we see a flop. Am I being trolled?

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443587#post58443587)

No I’m playing from BB obv. If SB folds you just win the $10. I guess I just didn’t understand your hand example. If SB limps and we raise, we are risking $20 to win $40. If they call and check flop and we bet, we are risking $20 to win $72. $8 only comes out of the pot if there is a flop.

I’m not trolling , I just played twice live in my life . So a flop happens now u pay 8$ minimum . But let’s say more bet happens on turn and river afterwards ? Is it 8$ total regardless turn and river action or it’s 8$ on flop plus some rake from pot getting bigger on turn and river from further betting posflop ?

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443406#post58443406)

It is not hard to track results from the blinds in BvB hands. It takes like 5 seconds after a hand to put a result in my notes. I’m not tracking every hand from these positions - just the BvB ones, and only those that i previously would have chopped (so none when only six seats are filled).

Why wouldn't you track hands in BvB spots when you're short handed? It will build a larger sample much faster, can you can just normalize the results by adding phantom rake up to $8. So, if the rake was $6 and you won $160, record it as $158. I suppose some people play differently, for better or worse, when the game is short, so your results short-handed might not be reflective of your results in full-handed BvB spots. But I think the benefit of building a larger sample will outweigh whatever differences there may be.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443406#post58443406)

a) because I would rather play than chop. Playing is more fun than not playing.b) because it gets tiresome explaining that I play six-handed, but I’ll chop when it’s temporarily 6-handed in a full game, etc.c) my gut tells me that I will profit in BvB situations in these games, even with the cost of playing being $8 per hand. I could certainly be wrong. I’m okay finding out ... See full post

A - ok, but do you still think it's fun if you're likely upsetting some of the fun players? B - you don't need to make it that complicated. No need to have an exception for walkers. I don't chop 5 or less, doesn't matter if it's temporary. This is also much more common than 6, so doesn't need explaining. C - you will never find out if it's profitable, the sample size will be extremely low and depend greatly on who the other player is. D - you seem to think the other player did something wrong in that incident. He may be a douchebag, but you made the mistake not him (based on your explanation).

by Montrealcorp m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443676#post58443676)

I’m not trolling , I just played twice live in my life . So a flop happens now u pay 8$ minimum . But let’s say more bet happens on turn and river afterwards ? Is it 8$ total regardless turn and river action or it’s 8$ on flop plus some rake from pot getting bigger on turn and river from further betting posflop ?

If the $8 is taken on the flop, no more is taken later in the hand.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443706#post58443706)

A - ok, but do you still think it's fun if you're likely upsetting some of the fun players? D - you seem to think the other player did something wrong in that incident. He may be a douchebag, but you made the mistake not him (based on your explanation).

We are playing the biggest game in the room. Plenty of people don’t chop. No one cares. If they do care, they get over it. I don’t care if someone gets upset for a brief moment. It will be fine. If you actually read what I wrote you will know I knew it was my own fault and I didn’t put up a fight about it. I knew he was in the right. Doesn’t mean I like giving some scumbag $10 because he’s being petty. I would normally chop in that situation. It has little to do with me paying attention or not. But sure, technically, he’s in the right. I don’t think many other players would have done that. And now I don’t have to worry about it.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443698#post58443698)

Why wouldn't you track hands in BvB spots when you're short handed? It will build a larger sample much faster, can you can just normalize the results by adding phantom rake up to $8. So, if the rake was $6 and you won $160, record it as $158.

In my head, it’s because I would always play those hands and I was only curious about the spots I used to chop in. Also, it comes up way more often 6-handed or less and is more of a pain in the ass track lol. You make good points though. I will def consider it or just not track at all.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443706#post58443706)

A - ok, but do you still think it's fun if you're likely upsetting some of the fun players? B - you don't need to make it that complicated. No need to have an exception for walkers. I don't chop 5 or less, doesn't matter if it's temporary. This is also much more common than 6, so doesn't need explaining.

Also, FWIW, I think it’s more unfriendly to not chop for a single hand when the game is full but briefly 6-handed than it is to never chop. Now a fun player has to be aware of your own personal rules - which they certainly aren’t thinking about at all - rather than just knowing you never chop.

.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443805#post58443805)

Also, FWIW, I think it’s more unfriendly to not chop for a single hand when the game is full but briefly 6-handed than it is to never chop. Now a fun player has to be aware of your own personal rules - which they certainly aren’t thinking about at all - rather than just knowing you never chop.

I've only every heard of one other person changing chopping practices based on if anyone is walking or not. Certainly seems to me the standard is based on how many people are dealt into the hand. That's what the rake is based on, which is the reason for chopping to begin with. It's also a lot easier to count people present than people present + walkers.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443706#post58443706)

I don't chop 5 or less, doesn't matter if it's temporary.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443706#post58443706)

you seem to think the other player did something wrong in that incident. He may be a douchebag, but you made the mistake not him.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443818#post58443818)

I've only ever heard of one other person changing chopping practices based on if anyone is walking or not. Certainly seems to me the standard is based on how many people are dealt into the hand. It's also a lot easier to count people present than people present + walkers.

[emoji2962]

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58443966#post58443966)

[emoji2962]

Huh? Looks like your last post was just an emoji, and one that doesn't show up on my phone. BTW though, I haven't been meaning to argue with you, just give the feedback / advice that you seemed to want.

The only feedback I care about is if it’s profitable or not to always play from the blinds.

Well, OK then.

So how about the Super Bowl in Vegas?

by that_pope m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58444651#post58444651)

So how about the Super Bowl in Vegas?

This post doesn't have anything to do with chopping the blinds at 20/40 with an $8 drop. Take that **** somewhere else!

Yall are weird. I meant in regards to the original question I posed. Only a few people have attempted to answer that and there have been many comments on the topic, most of it useless to what I want to know. I guess I just said “is there any merit?” but what I really meant was “is there any financial merit?”

NC/LC stands for No Content / Low Content

Well, it seems pretty rude to me, in response to some good faith responses from others, to say their responses are "useless" and you "don't care" about them. I know your comments were directed at others, not me, but there's much more polite ways to go about it. For example, I'd probably have said, "I appreciate everyone's thoughts on chopping, but I've made up my mind to not chop, so I'm really just looking for feedback on whether I can beat the $8 rake, not on whether to chop or whether my old approach to chopping was sound."

Very fair. I was mostly just annoyed that I was having a back and forth with someone that said he always plays 5-handed regardless if it’s temporary or not, but also said he’s basically never heard of someone basing their chopping decisions on how many people are walking, but also says he thinks it’s standard to chop or not chop based on number of players dealt in. Hard to not think I’m being trolled there. I suppose the polite play would have been to just stop interacting. Having pointless arguments with people online is easily one of my biggest character flaws.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58445084#post58445084)

Very fair. I was mostly just annoyed that I was having a back and forth with someone that said he always plays 5-handed regardless if it’s temporary or not, but also said he’s basically never heard of someone basing their chopping decisions on how many people are walking, but also says he thinks it’s standard to chop or not chop based on number of players dea... See full post

Maybe I didn't explain myself well, but I don't think I said anything contradictory, and I certainly wasn't trying to troll you. I play if there are 5 or fewer people dealt into the hand. I don't look around the table at stacks to figure out how many people are walking. Seems to be fairly standard practice to me. I figured you might want more of my input as I am the only one here who has played a significant amount of time in your regular game, AFAIK. I was the first one to answer your post and said right away before any other comment that I did not think it would be a benefit financially to stop chopping when at full rake. Other tangents that I and others took are what people enjoy about online forums. You can't expect to just get a yes or no from several people with no explanation, nor would I think you would get much benefit from that anyway.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58445159#post58445159)

I play if there are 5 or fewer people dealt into the hand. I don't look around the table at stacks to figure out how many people are walking.

You indicated that fun players may get upset that I don’t chop. I pointed out that it is arguably more upsetting to a fun player when someone that normally chops suddenly doesn’t want to chop because only six players got dealt in (even though the game has been and still is full). I’m not talking about your perspective or my perspective. I’m talking about the perspective of the fun player that you seem to be worried about upsetting. They don’t care that only six people got dealt in. In their eyes the game is still full. But now here’s this guy they’ve been chopping with all day saying he’s not chopping this hand. I know you said 5-handed. I’m using a 6-handed example because the game has the appearance of being full and 6 is where I used to draw the line. But again, I chopped in these situations because the game condition is only briefly changed and will be back to normal in a few hands and that seems like the friendly approach. They aren’t paying attention to your chopping rules, nor should they have to. In their eyes there is a big difference between a game that only 5 people are playing in and a 7-handed game that has two people walking for a few minutes.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58445200#post58445200)

You indicated that fun players may get upset that I don’t chop. I pointed out that it is arguably more upsetting to a fun player when someone that normally chops suddenly doesn’t want to chop because only six players got dealt in (even though the game has been and still is full). I’m not talking about your perspective or my perspective. I’m talking ab... See full post

Yeah, I saw that, but it doesn't seem to happen in games I have played with that I have noticed. As I said, I have only ever had one person get salty about it, and he is the farthest thing from a "fun player" there is - Plays fairly tight, often berates bad play, and gets annoyed about every little thing. You do know your pool of players better than I do, but based on my play overall, in several different cities and venues, the majority of people do what I do (that is why I settled on it myself) - play when 5 or fewer dealt in, for whatever reason, because that is the standard the house uses for reducing the rake. Honestly I often don't even notice if someone is walking or has picked up his chips and left. I just watch the cards as they are dealt. The first hand that is 5 handed, I note to the people sitting next to me that I don't chop 5 or less, so they know I'm not doing it based on my cards.

So Harbaugh. having soared to the pinnacle of coaching an elite Big [s]Ten[/s] Fourteen team, is now slumming again in the NFL. Who thinks the Chargers are paying him more than Michigan was?

Jon Gruden would still have 4 years at $10M / year left on his Raiders contract.

So it's been common knowledge for a couple decades that we need to chop when there is oppressive rake at live 20/40. Some estimates of how bad it is to play: Rake when I open BvB and see a flop at Stars 10/20 in 2010/2011: 2.27%, 5.5 BB/100 Rake when I open BvB and see a flop if I was paying the equivalent of a $4 drop in these same 10/20 games instead of the friendlier 2010-2011 Stars rake structure: 4.65%, 11.17 BB/100 There's just no way it is possible to overcome such absurd rake if you never chop. It would would only be possible to beat huge whales or maybe a super tight old man coffee type.

Do you guys think the high rake should also make you defend your BB significantly less than you would in a time game (particularly in headsup pots)?

I think it's damn near impossible to beat the rake BvB when it was $5/hand let alone $8 per hand. Over 100 hands that's 20 BB/100 going to rake assuming full rake.

Well, one bright side is that the extra $3 goes to PSJ/HH so you get some of that back anyway, plus if you don’t chop you will win some high hands and jackpots you normally wouldn’t.

When casinos take money out for promotions, they usually only give 15-20% back to the players.

I can’t speak to the bigger places but that’s not at all how it’s been at the poker rooms I’ve worked in. They took out a small percentage for facilitating it but it was less than 15%, if not less than 5%.

It would be quite an interesting dynamitic but it probably possible to be +ev . You going to get a lot of free passes and people would defend way less. Don't peel marginal gutter. Could donk check fold on a numbers of flop texture w your Ax. Probably be -ev against certain player though the loose maniac who will over defend/open and peel light etc. Also playing helps you develop more skill at bvb but you could also do quicker online. But this question remind me of this story by Charlie Munger though. https://x.com/YahooFinance/status/112471... (https://x.com/YahooFinance/status/1124716677906591744?s=20)

Now that’s what I’m talking about! The man at the top of the food chain says it could be a thing. Also, to be fair, I quit chopping before I asked the question. [emoji6] I’m not one to shy away from bad results so I’ll share my data here, however insignificant it may be.

by Unguarded m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58448750#post58448750)

When casinos take money out for promotions, they usually only give 15-20% back to the players.

This is way off unless most casinos are violating regulations and getting away with it. I believe in Las Vegas all the promo money has to be used to benefit players and in most other jurisdictions they are only allowed to keep a small part for administrative expenses, usually around 10%. I still dislike having the promos though.

They introduced 20/40 mix at my room and I’m interested to see if that continues to move people away from holdem. Early evidence suggests that it will. After 20 years we are getting new chips tomorrow. Big week

I still have a Schneids chip.

by holmfries m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58450195#post58450195)

They introduced 20/40 mix at my room and I’m interested to see if that continues to move people away from holdem. Early evidence suggests that it will. After 20 years we are getting new chips tomorrow. Big week

Is that Canterbury Park? What games are in the mix? Does the 40/80 mic still run?

Commerce 20/40. Pot is capped 8 ways PF. Flop is A72r. How many people have sets?

1.8 on average.

by asmitty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58451132#post58451132)

Commerce 20/40. Pot is capped 8 ways PF. Flop is A72r. How many people have sets?

Less than one on average. The only thing I am certain of is that someone has a deuce.

by KL03 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58451372#post58451372)

Less than one on average. The only thing I am certain of is that someone has a deuce.

You are correct that someone had at least one deuce. Spoiler Show

That person had two of them

Spoiler Show

That person had one out to beat my 77

Spoiler Show

And I had one out to beat AA :(

I just tried to find out how much of the promotional rake goes back to the players. It looks like Washington isn't allowed to screw the players like California and Florida, so there is a good chance you are getting most of it back in theory. I can't find any exact numbers, but California apparently allows the casinos to find all sorts of bs reasons to withhold jackpot money. Florida is supposed to be pretty bad too. When I first started playing live, I assumed that the players got most of the jackpot rake back. When I said so out loud at Commerce 40/80, I got laughed at by the whole table. A nice reg who was a huge math nerd told me that we get about 16% of it back. The rest of the table nodded in agreement. I mostly played 60/120 where it was time with no jackpot, so I never bothered to dive deeper. That's pretty cool though if Washington casinos really give 80+% back. Recs love their promos, so that has to be great for the game quality.

by asmitty m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58451132#post58451132)

Commerce 20/40. Pot is capped 8 ways PF. Flop is A72r. How many people have sets?

so how big was the final pot, like $3k?

by NittyOldMan1 m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58451493#post58451493)

so how big was the final pot, like $3k?

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 racks. It went 3 bets 3 ways on the turn and 1 bet 3 ways on the river.

And Washington has “good” promos running constantly. I get like $6k+ back on average every year and I struggle to play even 30 hours a week.

by TheDarkKnight m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58451852#post58451852)

And Washington has “good” promos running constantly. I get like $6k+ back on average every year and I struggle to play even 30 hours a week.

Yes; while I would prefer not to have any promos, the way it is mostly done in WA casinos, with frequent high hand bonuses, is far better than having extremely rare large jackpots.

by chillrob m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58451890#post58451890)

Yes; while I would prefer not to have any promos, the way it is mostly done in WA casinos, with frequent high hand bonuses, is far better than having extremely rare large jackpots.

Eh, it kind of depends on when you play and when the promos run. In most casinos, the BBJ is running 24/7. The smaller promos are usually run on non-peak days/hours to drive traffic during those times. If you only play during peak hours, your jackpot contribution is being used to subsidize promos you don't partake in. At least everyone has a fair shot at the BBJ proportional to how many hands they play. Plus, in markets with some measure of competition, a big BBJ can really drive traffic to a room during all hours.

by hardinthepaint m (https://www.twoplustwo.com/post?postId=58452217#post58452217)

Eh, it kind of depends on when you play and when the promos run. In most casinos, the BBJ is running 24/7. The smaller promos are usually run on non-peak days/hours to drive traffic during those times. If you only play during peak hours, your jackpot contribution is being used to subsidize promos you don't partake in. At least everyone has a fair shot at the BBJ proportional to... See full post

It seems like they would do that, but actually in the two largest poker rooms in Washington, the bonuses are better during the times more people are already playing, weekends, afternoons, and evenings. The people who play in the middle of the night have to contribute to the fund but get back much less. In my experience in places with lots of competition, BBJs move players around from one casino to another but don't bring in people who wouldn't have played otherwise. When I played regularly in Atlantic City, the low limit players would mostly go to whatever casino had the biggest jackpot, then when it would hit they would go to a different casino which now had the biggest jackpot. Without a BBJ, they would have stayed put in whatever room they preferred for other reasons.

Has anyone tried paying themselves a "salary" at the end of each month instead of just rolling with the swings? I remember this idea being suggested by some old school pros. Example: You have averaged 8k/month for the past 2 years and already play the highest LHE stakes in your city, so you decide to give yourself an 8k/month salary for the next year no matter how good or bad you run. And let's assume that your bankroll is on the conservative side, and that you can easily withdraw from your savings if a terrible streak of runbad hits. I am wondering if this could add some extra "iciness" to our play at the tables since we are less connected to our short-term results... less win-locking, less fear when we make thin plays, feeling more human, etc. Whatcha think?

I’m not a pro any longer but I did something similar. I gave myself a $2000/month salary ($400/week cash) but also budgeted all reoccurring expenses - rent, electric etc. The cash was mostly used for food and hookers but it helped stabilize things

I've thought about this myself, but really I spend very little apart from necessities so it's not really that important. It could do what you say, but it also could lead to you playing fewer hours, so you might want to make it hourly instead of monthly, unless your schedule is completely fixed.