What is going on with Kem?

Hi, I was hoping to get some advice about Kem cards.. Given their classic status and high praise, I was so excited to finally try them. I bought a sealed set on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/?mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&campid=5338995683&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1) and upon opening them up, there was a heavy "crackle" effect to the surface of the cards (photos below).. from what i read, it is possibly humidity related... anyway, I returned them, the seller was cool, no issues. While looking around, I notice the reviews on amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20) are horrendous with many people having similar issues and other quality control problems.. With these issues being so prevalent, as well as the pixelated jokers... my question is; Is there a preferred or more reputable source for getting Kems? and is it even worth it?? I'm honestly a little nervous about buying them now. Have they just gone on auto pilot off their reputation and are cutting corners? I am aware of the bowing issues of acetate cards and am prepared for that, but all this other stuff just seems crazy for some of the most expensive cards on the market. I would appreciate thoughts and opinions. Thanks!

IMHO, I think their quality has gone down since they were bought by USPCC. Their prices have always risen, but like a lot of companies (post-pandemic), their prices seemed to have skyrocketed.

I am still a huge fan, and I still think the best cards on the planet is a freshly-opened setup of Kems.

That being said, I cannot recommend them to anyone. Not at that price point, declining quality, and not sure how long the product is going to remain usable after opening it.

There are cheaper/more available options including; Fournier, Angel, NTP, Dal Negro, and J Design. I would look at those instead.

I’m not buying anymore Kems, and again, cannot recommend them.

@Spinettis Gaming (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/members/1404/) was selling used set ups around Black Friday for $18 (about $30 shipped for me). Not sure if there are any left still but probably best price for Kems. Could be worth a PM if you’re interested.

I really like the Kems that I have but haven’t tried the others so I can’t give a recommendation. From threads I’ve seen, I’d say the general consensus is that Kems are great but also this:

Fournier, Angel, NTP, Dal Negro, and J Design. I would look at those instead.

There are cheaper/more available options including; Fournier, Angel, NTP, Dal Negro, and J Design. I would look at those instead.

I’m not buying anymore Kems, and again, cannot recommend them.

Cant forget Broken Arrow Professional series. The red and blue circle back cards are some of the best cards ive used, period. They are cheaper than anything out there also.

You aren't the only one. Kems frequently warp and often turn "scaley".

We buy plastic cards because they are significantly better than plastic (unless you throw out the paper deck every 5 hours or so). Then there's the stretch for the best. Which is the best is often debated on the forum, showing that the improvement between plastic cards tends to be relatively minor. I currently have 15 different card types in my stable. I have preferences, but not to the level that no deck gets played.

In short, find a plastic deck you like and that fits your budget.

I own pre-USPCC KEMs and current KEMs, and I’m not convinced there’s a difference. I am convinced they’re the very best handling plastic cards in the world, though that’s subjective - some people like cards that snap.

But they’re finicky - they can get bowed, and sometimes you’ll get a crackly setup like the one pictured here (I think they got cooked at some point; maybe in a mailbox or in a truck in the desert.) None of that matters though, because their price is stupid. $75 per setup? NO!

To answer your question though, Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20) usually has the most competitive price. I’d never buy them (or any playing cards) used.

KEMs are dogwater. You have the right product; it's simply a poor one. The Emperor is naked, my friend.

Join us on the dark side. We use Fournier, Broken Arrow, Desjgn, Bicycle, NTP, and Angels, and we can keep our cards without pointless rituals or humidors.

I still have a setup of Kem Arrows I'm able to keep from warping thanks to creative storage, and a few of my WSOP setups from the 2010s are Kems as well. I'll use the heck out of them until I can't, then won't replace them.

Future buys will likely all be Broken Arrows. Eagerly awaiting the Tangiers blood-and-sand to reach the group buy plateau.

@Kam (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/members/15228/)

Thanks to everyone for the feedback — I really appreciate it. I’m a big fan of Broken Arrow and have purchased several decks; I agree they offer outstanding value. I also own Dal Negro Texas Hold’em, Copag Texas Hold’em, Copag 4 Color, Modiano Platinum, Statesman, and I have Fournier 2800, 2818, 2826, and Modiano bridge on order through the Xdan Group Buy that just finished. : )

Hi, I was looking for some guidance about Kem cards. Given their classic reputation and high praise, I was eager to finally try them. I purchased a sealed set on eBay and when I opened it there was a pronounced “crackle” texture on the card surfaces (photos below). From what I’ve read, humidity might be the cause. I returned the set — the seller was cooperative and there were no problems. While browsing, I noticed many terrible reviews on Amazon describing similar defects and other quality-control problems. With these issues seeming so common, as well as the pixelated jokers... my question is: is there a recommended or more trustworthy place to buy Kems? And are they still worth it? I’m honestly a bit hesitant to buy now. Have they been relying on their reputation and cutting corners? I know about acetate cards’ tendency to bow and I’m prepared for that, but all these other issues feel surprising for some of the priciest cards available. I’d welcome any thoughts or opinions. Thanks!

What do you mean? Those are just KEM’s new “scaly marble” series.

@Spinettis Gaming (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/members/1404/) was offering used setups around Black Friday for $18 (roughly $30 shipped to me). Not sure if any remain, but it was probably the best price for Kems. Might be worth sending a PM if you’re interested.

I really like the Kems I own but haven’t tried other brands, so I can’t endorse them. From threads I’ve read, the general view seems to be that Kems are excellent, but also this:

We have about 15 black-and-gold bridge standard setups available if anyone wants one.

They won’t be available forever.

Please PM me if interested.

@Kam (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/members/15228/)

Couldn't agree more. What's with that guy!

And they are $17.95 a configuration.

Jumping into this thread for some advice. Long story short, I recently sold some unopened KEM Arrow setups (30 in total, a mix of wide and narrow) that belonged to a deceased relative. The buyer has opened one setup and asked me about the surface texture (close-up photo attached). This appears similar to what the OP described.

Can anyone who uses KEM cards confirm whether this is simply the normal texture, or if it indicates a defect?

If it is a defect, does anyone know whether it is likely to be a widespread problem across KEM Arrow decks, or if it’s random or more likely in particular setups?

I don’t know much about KEMs or the structure of playing cards in general. I’m trying to work out whether the buyer should be compensated, so any insights would be appreciated. Thanks!

It's common enough that is is a known condition of KEMs. Nobody really knows why, but it is likely from heat/cold cycling. Since that would be a by-product of storage, I would expect the seller to refund the purchase.

Jumping into this thread for some advice. Long story short, I recently sold some unopened KEM Arrow setups (30 total, a mix of wide and narrow) that belonged to a deceased relative. The buyer has opened one setup and asked about the surface texture (close-up photo attached). This looks similar to what the OP described.

Can anyone who plays with KEM cards confirm whether this is a normal surface texture, or if it indicates a defect?

If it is a defect, does anyone know whether it tends to affect many KEM Arrow cards, or if it’s random or limited to particular setups?

I’m not very familiar with KEMs or the structure of playing cards in general. I’m trying to decide whether the buyer should receive compensation, so any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

View attachment 1648648 (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/attachments/1648648/)

Yeah, that is bad. This is the texture on a Kem.

This happens often enough that it's a recognized condition of KEMs. No one is certain of the cause, but temperature cycling (heat and cold) is the likely culprit. Because that would result from storage, I would anticipate the seller offering a refund for the purchase.

It's the loss of plasticizer from the surface of the cellulose acetate that makes the surface somewhat brittle and leads to those cracks.

It's the loss of plasticizer from the surface of the cellulose acetate that makes the surface somewhat brittle and leads to those cracks.

Any idea what causes that?

Any clue what causes that?

It typically happens with age and use. I’ve heard that keeping them in an airtight container could slow the aging, but don’t quote me on that.

I own A LOT of different brands of cards….like almost every brand in existence. I came to this this trying to find a cheaper alternator Kem cards that also didn’t have the tendency to bow if not stored ideally (Upside down with a cut card on top…cheap dealer button too even better…indoor temps and humidity). I spent 15 years and hundreds and hundreds dollars and didn’t find an alternative until about a year ago. Angel acetate cards that need to be bought from Japan via Japanese Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20)..

That said I obviously did this because I absolutely love the way Kem cards feel. There is nothing that comes close.… Except for Angel cards

Having owned Kem cards since 2002 both pre-and post USPC time I can say the following things with absolute certainty

There is zero difference between pre-and post USPC cards. I would bet money that no one could tell the difference handling and looking both at decks.

There is also zero difference in their tendency to bow or not to bow between those two times of manufacturing

The cracks you see are absolutely 100% not normal. These cards are probably stored for many many years in non-ideal temperatures. You can see the date on the ace of spades. You should take a picture and I can tell you what year they were made. These are being sold on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/?mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&campid=5338995683&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1) likely because they were known to have an issue and we’re trying to find someone to buy them. Unfortunately, that person was you.

They always were slightly more expensive, but now are exceedingly more expensive. I don’t know why they did this other than to purposely limit their sales to the private market.

Because of this price hike, I can absolutely not recommend them to anyone anymore and I would steer them towards Angel cards if you want that luxurious feel of Kem without the price and storage problems. As of right now, my Angel cards seem to have stayed completely flat.

Despite some of the hate by a small but vocal group here, people who love Kem cards do so because of their unique soft feel. Outside of Angel there is literally not a single manufacturer of cards on the planet that even comes close.

Despite the hate here, they are still the overwhelming choice of every major casino card room in Atlantic City, Vegas, and elsewhere. To be honest, I’ve never played in a casino card room that wasn’t using Kem cards, though I do see Copags on Poker vlogs at some small California and Texas card rooms. There is a brand called Queens that I’ve seen used on Poker vlogs at some really random no name card rooms around the country. But if you go and play poker at Bellagio, the Wynn, Aria….Borgata and Harrahs in AC, etc. you will only find Kem cards being used. They are obviously not the cheapest card to buy so there must be a reason casinos continue to choose them.

I also highly recommend NOT buying used Kems. They are often old casino decks that have been used abused and run through shufflers 1000s of times. They usually come bowed

As an owner of about 20 decks of KEM, some dating back to the early 40's up to a couple of decks bought last year, I can say that they are the most temperamental cards in existence. They feel different than anything else, yes, but, I do very little holding of my cards once they are dealt. I see no consistency in how they wear, some will bow within a few minutes of opening, some still look great over 80 years old. At today's price point I could NEVER recommend them. The ones that bow immediately I've kept in a controlled environment until opening. I never open a deck straight out of the mailbox. The last few times I've bought I've bought at least two decks just for the sake of comparison, and, sometimes one is junk, the other not.

I own A LOT of different brands of cards….like almost every brand in existence. I came to this this trying to find a cheaper alternator Kem cards that also didn’t have the tendency to bow if not stored ideally (Upside down with a cut card on top…cheap dealer button too even better…indoor temps and humidity). I spent 15 years and hundreds and hundreds dollars and didn’t find an alternative until about a year ago. Angel acetate cards that need to be bought from Japan via Japanese Amazon..

That said I obviously did this because I absolutely love the way Kem cards feel. There is nothing that comes close.… Except for Angel cards

Having owned Kem cards since 2002 both pre-and post USPC time I can say the following things with absolute certainty

There is zero difference between pre-and post USPC cards. I would bet money that no one could tell the difference handling and looking both at decks.

There is also zero difference in their tendency to bow or not to bow between those two times of manufacturing

The cracks you see are absolutely 100% not normal. These cards are probably stored for many many years in non-ideal temperatures. You can see the date on the ace of spades. You should take a picture and I can tell you what year they were made. These are being sold on eBay likely because they were known to have an issue and we’re trying to find someone to buy them. Unfortunately, that person was you.

They always were slightly more expensive, but now are exceedingly more expensive. I don’t know why they did this other than to purposely limit their sales to the private market.

Because of this price hike, I can absolutely not recommend them to anyone anymore and I would steer them towards Angel cards if you want that luxurious feel of Kem without the price and storage problems. As of right now, my Angel cards seem to have stayed completely flat.

Despite some of the hate by a small but vocal group here, people who love Kem cards do so because of their unique soft feel. Outside of Angel there is literally not a single manufacturer of cards on the planet that even comes close.

Despite the hate here, they are still the overwhelming choice of every major casino card room in Atlantic City, Vegas, and elsewhere. To be honest, I’ve never played in a casino card room that wasn’t using Kem cards, though I do see Copags on Poker vlogs at some small California and Texas card rooms. There is a brand called Queens that I’ve seen used on Poker vlogs at some really random no name card rooms around the country. But if you go and play poker at Bellagio, the Wynn, Aria….Borgata and Harrahs in AC, etc. you will only find Kem cards being used. They are obviously not the cheapest card to buy so there must be a reason casinos continue to choose them.

do you happen to have a link you can share? i cannot find them

do you happen to have a link you can share? i cannot find them

For Angels? Unfortunately after I posted this I went out to the Japanese Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20) and they are sold out

For the price, get the Broken Arrow professional series. I’m hoping they reintroduce the compass design. At around $11 a setup, less expensive if you preorder, you just can’t beat it. I purchased 30 setups of the blue and red circles. They’re used once and then retired. No concerns about marked cards, intentional or not.

For Angels? Unfortunately, after I posted this I checked Japanese Amazon and they’re sold out.

Many people here say Angels are the closest to KEM in terms of "feel." Is it true they only come in bridge size? (if they come at all since they are out of stock on japanese amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20) as we speak)

What would be the closest 3rd option? Broken Arrows, Faded Spade, Modiano Platinum? Copags have that yellowish cast which I didn’t like.

Wish I checked this thread before buying KEMs, thanks for all the alternates.

A lot of people here said Angels are the closest to KEM in terms of the "feel" . Is it true they only come in bridge size? (if they come at all since they are out of stock on japanese amazon as we speak)

What would be the closest 3rd option? Broken arrows, faded spade, modiano platinum? Copags have that yellowish hue which i didnt like.

They are 100% the closest to Kems but specifically the green box knew now sold out in Japanese Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20)

Wish I checked this thread before buying KEMs, thanks for all the alternates.

all you had to do was check the price. They are CLEARLY not interested in selling to the public. It’s almost like they are deterring sales to the public. There are no cards worth $75 a setup…and I love Kems. Again, I never paid more than $23. Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/?tag=amznpcfx-20) used to have random sales…but haven’t seen that since before covid

Just spoke to a Casino manager who is actively trying to shop and test out different cards, but they are not happy with any second option because they all crease so much. He said the second best is faded spade but they crease too. I don’t know how many cards they tested just relaying. They have Kem currently.

Just talked with a casino manager who’s actively shopping and trying out different decks, but they’re unhappy with every alternative because each one creases heavily. He said the next best is faded spade, but those crease too. I don’t know how many decks they tried — just passing along what he said. They’re using Kem right now.

9 out of 10 they will end up with Fournier or Copag.... (my guess at least).

Casinos that have or had KEM (US) or Cartamundi casino BE stock (RIP) have nearly all switched to Fournier or Copag

9 out of 10 they will end up with Fournier or Copag.... (my guess at least).

Casino's that have or had KEM (US) or Cartamundi casino BE stock (RIP) have almost all switched to Fournier or Copag

Maybe in Europe…but definitely not in the US. I was just playing poker for three days in Vegas and play in Atlantic City throughout the year. EVERY major casino used Kem cards. The three most famous poker rooms in Vegas (Wynn, Bellagio, and Aria) all use them as does Borgata in AC

Just talked with a casino manager who’s actively shopping and trialing various cards, but they aren’t satisfied with any alternative because they all crease a lot. He mentioned the second-best option is Faded Spade, but those crease too. I don’t know how many decks they tested — I’m just passing along what he said. They’re using Kem right now.

I’m guessing they have Deckmates if they’re considering Faded Spade. No way would I let dealers hand-shuffle those if I were the manager.

I figure they have Deckmates if they're even thinking about Faded Spade. No way would I let dealers hand-shuffle those things if I were the manager.

Wynn's WPT a few years back had to hand-shuffle them — they hated it.

The casino manager I talked to is also testing a new shuffle machine; the name slips my mind… (not Wynn)

Wynn WPT a few years ago and to hand shuffle them! Haha they hated it.

They were also trying out a new shuffle machine!

I noticed at Wynn none of the tournament tables had shufflers. I didn’t bother looking to see what cards were being used but the cash tables all use branded Wynn Kem cards

I noticed at Wynn none of the tournament tables had shufflers. I didn’t bother looking to see what cards were being used but the cash tables all use branded Wynn Kem cards

Yeah they normally use Kem even in tourneys but faded spade has a sponsorship w Wpt just to use them during the series was my guess.

Quantum is starting to appear in some of these card rooms. The AmeriStar in Blackhawk has gone completely to Quantum. I was in Vegas for the CCA in June and played at The Orleans. They used to be exclusively Kem. About half the tables were using Quantum. The dealers said they marked much easier than Kem. During a 6-7 hour session I saw at least 3 requests for a replacement deck at the surrounding tables (I happened to be a table that still had Kems).

Quantum is starting to appear in some of these card rooms. The AmeriStar in Blackhawk has gone completely to Quantum. I was in Vegas for the CCA in June and played at The Orleans. They used to be exclusively Kem. About half the tables were using Quantum. The dealers said they marked much easier than Kem. During a 6-7 hour session I saw at least 3 requests for a replacement deck at the surrounding tables (I happened to be a table that still had Kems).

I’ve noticed some odd brands from smaller card rooms on the various poker VLOGs. Queens is one as is Kings Master…which is used at Texas Card Houses but seems to be a European brand

https://kings.shop/products/wsope-playing-cards

Resistance to creasing and marking is why I think Kem still dominates the major casino market. The issues “civilians” have with Kems don’t happen in the casino becasue they are always being used and in a cool dry air conditioned environment. Prolonged storage without use and temperature and humidity fluctuations aren’t good for acetate.

I’ve seen slight bowed Kems at the casino but they also look very old and worn out. When you watch poker vlogs of small card rooms you also see bowed cards from the other manufacturers….most likely from over use

Faded Spade is the only card made that I feel is unplayable. I truly believe the only reason they still exist is because they give away free cards to the WPT and try to leverage that for contracts with small cardrooms in the United States.

We've been trying to work out what's wrong with @Kam (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/members/15228/) for years. Seriously — research-level efforts. And we've made no progress. He's simply that messed up....

......oh .. the cards ...